Sorry to bring this back on the ice, but I think we need to talk about this again.

As anything been discussed on this issue? If no, is there ANYWAY that thing can be done, or the hate between some persons is just too great?

It looks to me like anyone who is still active in being a YPN administrator has given an ultimatum of breaking all ties soon. Will there even be a YPN left to join or not join with anything?

Starting over and paying respect to earlier mistakes can be a good thing. As some people have pointed out, there is no point in having two very similar communities like this. About hate between persons, I think that issue can be solved. After all, you don't have to hug whoever you don't like every time you join the channel. I'd vote for a "revolution"

The first step I see would be to unite YPN and TPU under the same banner. So people coming to www.youngprogrammers.net and www.tpu.org don't see 2 separate organisations but only 1.

Avoiding any discussion about the major technical issues (ie: the engines) could get us somewhere.

Yeah, but would it be called YPN or TPU? And would we be using the partyfish engine? I don't think KaGez would be very happy if he spent months coding this new spectacular engine just to have it thrown in the dumpster when the two merge. [addsig]

Quote:
Avoiding any discussion about the major technical issues (ie: the engines) could get us somewhere


That's it, I'm gonna kill ya dxprog!

You contaminated this thread with the infamous engine issue. There is no way KaGeZ will will waste months of work in order to use the TPU engine or whatever other thing is decided. I wouldn't do it either!

Let's forget about this and talk about if a merger is good, and what we can merge without starting a major fight!

And as for the name, I believe we should use nor TPU, nor YPN but decide on a new name. I'd be surprised if trying to choose on betweens the 2 current names leads to anything, just like talking about which engine we'll choose.

[ This Message was edited by: Neu[Mann] on 2002-11-21 07:52 ]

Sorry, I missed the engine thing. I say we should remain apart. There's already a flame war kindling. [addsig]

to be honest, I have no idea if it is good or bad to throw YPN and TPU together. It all has it's bad sides, and it's good sides too ofcourse. One bad thing would be, that we would have to do a lot of planing, and do many infamous discussions like the engine issue, name issue etc.. I don't think that each of use (TPU and YPN) want to throw away technoligies and tactics each developed up to now. There are things which are easy to merge, but again there are things which are hard to merge.
I know this sounds very general, but as I have stated in the beginning, I'm still not sure. I would like to think a bit more about it. But, since I'm not the only OP, other OPs should decide about it. I would just like to state my opinion, but I don't wanna decide
but, atm I still have no op...
[addsig]

I reckon its a good idea to join

Well, I don't think the TPU name is going anywhere since we have a 3-letter mainstream domain name for it.

A problem I see is that the people involved with TPU throughout the years are much older and more experienced than YPN members. I have specific, well backed up ideas about how such an organization should be run to achieve goals of helping its members help each other become super duper programmers. I am very frustrated by, in particular, Kagez's attitudes and behaviors here. From my vantage point, it is clear that he gives misleading, harmful, and often outright wrong information on a regular basis. I can't enter into any sort of "partnership" where he has some "right" to have his views enter the picture, unless he actually gets some more experience and finds some ways to justify his ideas. Right now, his justifications reduce to "everybody else does it" and "use whatever programming language you like best subjectively." As for the first one, our new generation has a chance to change ideas of "best practices" for the better. Let's not pass up that opportunity! As for the second "point," it's just a silly statement that anyone who tries multiple programming languages can refute, because some are just far superior in easily quantifiable ways. Not to single out Kagez: In general, I feel that the desire to be in positions of authority is way ahead of the knowledge to do what's necessary in a way most beneficial to members in people found here.

In the months I've spent in #ypn, I've been really impressed with the motivation and wit of many of the regulars, much more than I have been with legitimate TPU members today. I also see a good supply of layabouts with no intention to ever develop their programming skills.

However, it seems that almost everyone in YPN is unaware of what to do to become a good programmer, in terms of developing actual skills that most people don't have. The fact that you're _trying_ and talking to each other about it puts you way ahead of the current TPU crowd, I think. Nonetheless, I think an organization that tried to mix the current YPN philosophy into its own would be unnecessarily ineffective.

Interested people can join a thread I started in the TPU Suggestions forum at www.tpu.org to discuss some ideas for creating better organizations like ours. I'll post a new idea here, related to the above observations: I think it would be great to have a system for collaboratively authoring a large document giving all the information a new hobbyist programmer could want. It would include everything from information on future careers and how to prepare to parts to dispel myths like "C is good because it's popular" and "Low level languages make for the most challenging coding and you must use them to get efficient enough output."

Following Smerdyakov's message, this thread is gonna degenerate into a flame war and I want to have nothing to do with it.

Quote:
In the months I've spent in #ypn, I've been really impressed with the motivation and wit of many of the regulars[...]


I totally agree on this. YPN people get something done, regardless whetever they do it good or bad. Let's give them credit :)

I actually like the idea of producing documentation for the new hobbyist programmers just as long as:

Quote:
how to prepare to parts to dispel myths like


doesn't read as:

Quote:
how everybody must be using SML


Dispelling the myths is good, but diversity is good too. Programmers using C and the likes should know why it's bad and that there are some other alternatives.

Now before this topic get locked, here is the current state of the merger idea.

What we can't share:
- Domain names: tpu.org has aquired good visibility on search engines over the years. I believe it's the same case of youngprogrammers.net. Whether it's true or not, any discussion on that matter will get us nowhere.
- The Engines: Any discussion on this topic will degenerate into a flame war and personnal conflicts.
- Philosophy: This is sad because both TPU and YPN share the same goal.
- Anything involving money: Abulafia stays.
- Names: TPU and YPN names will both stay or both die. Using 1 of the 2 names for the merged organisation will lead to members of the organisation owning the ditched name to think that the other one is stealing is member base. This topic is also bound by the domain names.

On the other hand, what we can share:
- Members! If there is _one_ thing we should share, that's members. People joining TPU and YPN should know that there are in fact joining the same organisation.
- _A common login system_: This is the only technical thing I see shared across engines. The login system could be a web service shared across the 2 systems. That way, one subscribing to YPN will also be joining TPU. This could be discussed further is there any room for discussion from the involved people!
- A common super-organisation: "Young Programmers Network" part of Young Programmers Unite or something like that. Making clear that YPN is with TPU and TPU is with YPN and linking the 2 sites together would be a big step forward.

If a merger is even possible, the first thing to do would be to try to clarify YPN and TPU philosophy. Using that, the bases of a common super-organisation could be stated. After that, we'll see...

First of all I want to say that I am strongly convinced that YPN and TPU should join forces. I think that most people in both communities are thinking the same way. The major problem is the practical difficulties.

I think, that these difficulties might be solved. The problem that I see is, that most people in YPN and TPU will not be young programmers anymore. Well, maybe still young, but not "teenage". (did I already mention that I consider the "t"-factor in tpu one of its greatest flaws?)

To Smerdyakov: Yeah, we think about what makes a good programmer. The best way to do this is (in my opinion) to always doubt your current image of a good programmer. There is nothing like the optimal programmer. Same goes for programming langs, if you ask me.

After all I think, that there maybe should something like a programmers community not limited to any age. This group might have a subgroup for younger people or something like that. It simply has to be open for newbies and youngsters. [addsig]

I'm not starting a flame war, and any locking of this thread would just exemplify why I don't plan to involve myself with people running YPN now in any sort of "equal partnership." I only stated easily verifiable facts, regardless of if the people reading this have the experience to verify them.

To Mox: Doubting things doesn't make you a good programmer, but learning to think in the right way does. I don't see any YPN members committed to learning to think algorithmically, recursively, etc., about a wide range of problems. Rather, I see more of a committment to learn to write simple programs in "difficult" languages (Assembly, Forth, C, etc.), learn to use as many API's as possible (no creativity involved here), etc..

The war is on...

Quote:
Oho! I post long YPN forum message guaranteed to piss people off!


That only shows you were expecting to get flamed. Truth hurts, and starts flame war.

Smerdyakov:

Doubt your views, never think you've seen/learned it all.

That's all I say. Call me stupid call me less intelligent. It is still what I say. [addsig]

I'm not calling you stupid. I'm saying that your post had no relation to this discussion. As I said to you on IRC, the impossiblity of attaining perfection doesn't mean you shouldn't try to improve, using the current most successful ideas of what improvement is.

Well, as you obviously just do not want to understand what I'm saying (honestly, my englisgh might be bad, but not _that_ bad), I will not say anything in this discussion anymore.

There is no point about discussing because you have your one own image of what programming is. Nothing else is accepted. [addsig]

No, I really don't understand what you're saying. Everyone at universities, for example, agrees about what thinking skills a programmer needs to develop. That's why all the introductory classes are so similar.

Smerdyakov:
Thank you for telling me again how stupid I am (/me points at post in the middle of page1). And, scandisk you too

To get things back to the topic:
Anyways, I think a merge is a good idea, but if it happens, no dickheaded peoples like some certain persons should be involved (/me looks at Smerdyakov). If a merge is got to be done, we don't need people completely fanatic about one simple language, are heck inflexible and always claim they're right. Would you like to learn in such a place?

Honestly, if you'd join a community, and somebody like Smerdyakov would tell you right off how damned stupid you are, that your programming lollipops, that everything about you lollipop, would you stay with such a community where such jackasses are?

OK, here's my final opinion:
As long as Smerdyakov is going to be involved, and as long as I am in here, _no_ merge will happen. Even if everybody else will get to that new "project", I'm gonna stick in here alone and keep the YPN up. I could maybe get along with Smerdyakov some day, but I simply don't want to, and I don't _need_ to.
Thank you for your attention, and have a nice day.
[addsig]

I'm sorry.

I'm the stupid guy that started this stupid thread where personnal conflicts took over again. I expected that ending but kept a little hope that some people would see the light and discussed what I put forward.

It's obvious no merger will be possible until both organisation are lead by schizo Carnegie-Mellon students. 50% of this is realized and hopefully if that ever comes 100% true, I'll be long gone!

I suggest this topic gets locked since it's already off topic now.

I think we could never "merge" in the word's actual meaning.. we could share members, as suggested, we could link to each other or be sub-communities to a big 'community' - or rather a page which ties the two communities to each other (this has been suggested too). But we couldn't make the two communities really become one.

This is because of all the various conflicts that arise.

For instance, it's quite hard to have any kind of collaboration when some OPs from each community respectively hate each other. The engine question still stands, as well, and we can not avoid discussing it if we really want to merge communities, it's such a central thing.

(As a P.S: as for Smerdyakov's "thinking right" opinion: I don't think that all languages are equal, of course not. But that doesn't mean there is one possible, optimal way which you need to walk to "think right". Anyone who has such a bias is, in my humble opinion, thinking wrong.

I don't believe that the language you use make you a good or bad programmer, it's your programming that does.

And if SML is the ultimate language, then a bad SML coder would still be a worse programmer than a good C coder. Turning down people because of their language preference, on such a level, is just wrong. We all have our opinions, and we are all free to state them, but doing it as agressively as you do just creates bad feelings.)

But Smerdyakov and KaGez: please stop the flamewar, you both know you hate each other already...

Could we discuss this linker-site?

[ This Message was edited by: Peter on 2002-11-23 03:11 ]

I think that sharing members and doing some kind of events or contests together is a far better idea now than trying to just throw it all together.
This method is easier, since we can co-exist, but without rivality, and much more peacefully. And, you can choose who you want to work together with.
Not as much planning is involved, we can get rid of lots of flamewars etc.
I suggest this way
[addsig]

I think we should stop naming ppl by name, Im suprissed my name hasent poped up
(-:
I think we could work together, but we will have to think about whats best, putting our personal opinions aside, While we are not paying for our domain names, or who ever is is happy to keep doin so, why dont both point to the same location, have the same page, same name etc, though I dont think it should be called Young Programmers Network, or Teen Programmers United, something new, else we will get mexican stand off again, instead of rivaling, we should be able to work together.

Im not Smerdyakov biggest fan, but I can see his point, I think many ppl are misunderstanding him, plus i think hes a bit stuck up from his uni experience, which doesnt do the best for people skills, but we should be able to put that aside, and make something that will help ppl.
</end Rant>
(-:

Put short:
bloody grow up, put our petty differences aside and start doing something constructive.

PS: I know i dont always follow this, but i do try, forgive me if i dont.

sacah: even for an optimist like me, your utopy is too far-fetched to work, imo . sure, let's all be friends, but everything isn't always that simple. ok, a name/domain isn't a big problem, but the engine issue is, for instance. let's not get this started again .

Don't get me wrong, I really think we should cooperate as much as possible, but it seems like we're both running our own race, so a total merge doesn't seem to be possible right now, imo.

You'll just have to take my honesty here on faith:

I don't give a damn about petty squabbles about whose code gets used. However, I know that the engine currently running the TPU web site is superior to the one in the works now for YPN, and that the new one I am developing is even better. I wouldn't want to use Partyfish for the same reason I wouldn't want to pick a worse choice for any kind of software, written by me or not.

Again, my above statement doesn't mean that I proclaim myself perfect and superior to everyone. It just means that I have been creating this type of web site engine for 5 years longer than the crew here have.

Thats what im talking about, our biggest problem is:
1. Who engine should we use:
- We could try Sme* engine, if like its a overwelming vote, we can change to partyfish etc.
2. Who will the admins be:
- I reckon all admins from ypn and all from tpu.

Ok, what other things are not simply worked out, we dont have to make everything hard. Sure some ppl will have to sacrifice. But I really think its for the better of the community.

With all the desputes here in the YPN alone, I seriously doubt that we could merge these two together. And about the engine, if a merger were to come to pass, I think both sudes should contribute to the engine, not choose from one or the other. Of course this is probably bordering on the impossible, seeing how much enmity there is between TPU and YPN. If this is ever going to happen, or if we even want it to happen, we need to put differences aside and stop throwing hate around at people. [addsig]

If both sides don't have people qualified to create a good engine, then there is no need for both sides to contribute. There is no need to even think of things in terms of "sides". Software is needed to meet some requirements, and the necessary things will be done to obtain it. I just want to make it clear that I am working on an engine for a much larger project that will hopefully encompass TPU. I know what features are required. They will be in there, even if it means some people will refuse an "official merger."

And there's that word "hate" again. I believe we've determined that I'm not involved in any hating. (See other thread) Any "YPN admins" who do "hate" people because of issues like this certainly aren't qualified to be administrators in any joint venture, in my opinion.

I don't think any side, TPU or YPN, are contributing to good relations between the people.

I will be playing "Wait & See" on that idea. If the resulting organisation doesn't fit my ideal of what TPU/YPN should be, I'll be outta there since there will be no way I we will able to change anything.

My biggest fear is that too many people, less talented or less educated, will be put appart or ignored.

The only way YPN or TPU will change is if people are willing to change. No cooperation, nothing is going to happen and things will just slide downhill from there. [addsig]

Quote:
- I reckon all admins from ypn and all from tpu.

The YPN admins are the ones that are holding this back in the first place, and it seems obvious to me that it's really more of a pride issue than anything else. Who cares who's engine we use? Who cares what we decide to call it? What matters is that with a larger group, there are more people to learn from.

MooKeen: What you said is true but pretty short sighted. I don't think anyone would be happy to scrap something he spent few months of his spare time to do. I would surely NOT like it and you probably wouldn't, even if it would benifit the whole group.

My thoughts exactly!! [addsig]

well, the YPN admins don't have a single piece of pride about the YPN... as oyu can see, the admins barely do anything.
And, another thing:
I'm not gonna join this movement, since it doesn't make sence to me. The YPN as well as the TPU both have their stlye and way to teach/learn, which seems to differ quite much. I think a merge would be nonsence, because there will be 2 choices less for people who want to start programming.
Another thing is, that sometimes you need to work with people you don't like, because there's no other choice. In this case, I have another choice: Refuse to join the merge. And I'm taking exactly this choice. Why? Why should I volunteer to work with somebody I really don't like? Why should I work with somebody I can't get along with if I have the choice to not do so? I won't name any names, but I think it's quite obvious in my case
Anyways, if everybody else is gonna do it, I'm outa here too, since I've got places which can make me as happy as the YPN, probably even happier.
Have a nice day.
[addsig]

Well, Im sort of an admin, and I want the join, but really, Im leaving end of this year, YPN has some problems, and it will take a lot of work to make it what i forsee it doing, plus I have a lot of RL commitments, and other programming commitments.

So, the decision is up to those who are staying.

If the only active admins are leaving, who'll be left to do the job? [addsig]

dxprog: Smerdyakov will handle the job

Somehow I get the feeling that KaGez wouldn't give op rights to him even if he were the only person in the place. :P Besides he would rename it to the MLPN or something.

_________________
When I got VB, i could have flown without thrusters and shot down TIE Interceptors just by spitting at them.

[ This Message was edited by: dxprog on 2002-11-28 02:50 ]

KaGeZ already stated that he'll be leaving YPN.

Same for me. I'm still searching for a friendly programmer community without age limits.

Any suggestions? [addsig]

The YPN is going to fall into disarray without you people. <classic star wars scene>Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!</classic star wars scene> [addsig]

Quote:The YPN as well as the TPU both have their stlye and way to teach/learn, which seems to differ quite much.
The problem is that the people (at YPN at least; I can't speak for TPU) don't learn much at all.

Quote:
The problem is that the people (at YPN at least; I can't speak for TPU) don't learn much at all.


There is school for that...

and no, teens in TPU don't learn much either.

I don't think that YPN should force you to learn anything . if you learn nothing, that's not quite YPN's fault..

MooKeen: so if you've worked your ass off doing a great engine, you'd just throw it away without regrets just because some people reject it before even having used it? the engine question is not a petitesse, it's quite a major issue.

Also, we could still be learning from each other as a large group, without merging. we have fairly nice contacts on irc, I believe.


I must admit that this discussion seems a little laughable to me.

I still don't believe in throwing the two communities together. Cooperation, sure, yeah! But merger, no, imo.

[ This Message was edited by: Peter on 2002-11-28 09:02 ]

btw, Mox: we do not have an age limit. as long as your programmer spirit stays young (that hackerish thing in us), you're a Young Programmer

Way to put it Peter! I've picked up several things since being on YPN. It's kind of worked into your subconscious. [addsig]

I understand about the web engine, but I beleive we are using it at DXGames, so, its not completly wasted, and truthfully, I think Sme* engine will not live up to what hes saying it is, then we can change to partyfish, and can still say we gave him a chance.

I would really like to see YPN go ahead and become something greater than it is, but with peter back, i guess he can lead it pretty well.
(-:

Yeah, Peter does good job breaking up fights so he should be a good leader. [addsig]

When I got it right, then Smerdy's engine will be ready about next summer or something (please correct me if you know better!).

By that time, KaGez and me will probably have left YPN (at least we'll probably not be very active anymore, by then). So, none of the main partyfish developers will be there and interfere any decision.

Also, there's not much work done on partyfish
currently which is no big surprise considering the lack of motivation (why finish a thing that will not be used?).

But much more interesting than the question which engine to use it the question what this community will be at, half a year from now.

Something should happen. [addsig]

I believe Smerdyakov will try to start (if he hasn't started yet) during his 3 weeks break after his current term, and finish (mostly) by the begining of next year.

I don't believe we'll have to wait 6 months for that new engine.

[ This Message was edited by: Neu[Mann] on 2002-11-29 05:45 ]

I have a few things to put here now

1.) I have picked up _tons_ of knowledge at the YPN, and I also think I've shared quite much of knowledge I gathered here to the rest, some in IRC, some here, and some there.
2.) I think Peter will be able to handle it if he gets the motivation... but, I have _absolutely_ no idea how I could get peter's motivation for working on the YPN again

as mox said, by next summer I'll be outa here. I've found a place to stay, and I hope I can stay there for the next few years. Actually, 4 places
ClanLib, GIMP, numexp and DXGames. I love em all
[addsig]

I'm currently having a hard time in school (lots of essays and reports these last weeks), and that is why I'm not turning up so frequently.

I don't think that having one "leader" would be a good idea, however, I guess whoever is most actively working on the progress of YPN is/are automatically "leader(s)"... Anyway, it's pretty irrelevant - I'll see how my motivation looks after school's done for this year, and I'll surely contribute with what I can from that point..

Keep up the good hacking, see you around

OK, maybe I've entirely misinterpreted this thread, but if its showed me something, its that absolute democracy doesn't work.

To sort this out I suggest:

A team is set up, consisting of 1 admin and 2 members from both TPU and YPN. They will work out all the hard and technical details, without us seeing. Then they will bring out a "white paper" which is put to the vote and either passed or rejected. If it is absolutely rejected (65%), the "white paper" goes ahead - This is how true democracy works.

And about TPU vs YPN:
/me hates Smerdyakov. However even though I think he is incapable of accepting other peoples opinions and is very condescending, he is the most focused, most accomplished and the best programmer among us. I think everyone should respect that.

I discovered TPU and YPN at the same time, so I have no bias towards either, however the points I have noticed are:
• TPUs engine and site setup is far superior.
• YPN on IRC has a far freindlier(sp?)atmosphere and is more active.
• The younger ones of TPU(including myself) and almost all of YPN can learn a lot from the elders of TPU.
• We have so much to gain by merging, yet so much to loose from not.

As for who gets on the discussion board, I suggest that we leave that to the admins to decide on each site, however I think the admins cna choose by themselves and a simple PM the admin with your choice of non admin users and the most popular two go through.

OH, NO POPULARITY CAMPAIGNS, anyone promoting themselves gets kicked out of being on the panel.

For this to work, it needs a timetable:
•Panel chosen by Chriistmas Day.
•"White paper"(note the inverted commas means it isn't gonna be a full blooded report, just a webpage clearly stating the points.
• Voting by end of January
• If semi-passed, rewritten and revoted by end of March.
• If fully passed, a nominated person will start to take care of the merger,

My sugestions(because I haven't voiced them yet.)
-Use tpu domain name - shorter, 3 letters, what more do you want?
-Name: Young Programmers Unite (We're not all teens, and we're "uniting" the two sites.
-Engine: DevLocus and SML replacement when its ready.(Even though we keep www.tpu.org, I think its worth about $12,500 on the open market now)
-Server: Abulafia
-Existig YPN address redirects to new site.
-A FULL, COMPREHENSIVE ARCHIVE IS KEPT OF BOTH SITES AS THEY WERE.

-Admins on both sites get full admin status on the new site. Get rid of the YPN Star system.
-Everything (Even if TPU guys do not want it on the new site) on YPN is moved over to the new site and visa versa.

I suggest a simple approval or disapproval of this idea, with little or no debate here, (debate on IRC), so its quite clear whether to go ahead with the panel or not.

Most people probably won' like this idea, however members in the end will have the ultimate say. IMHO, this is gonna be the only way to get anything done about this debate.

- Thats alot of writing.

I think this is a reasonable idea, except that I have yet to see an example where "democracy" among this demographic has worked for keeping quality services available. The vast majority of people who will vote do not plan to ever contribute at all to the welfare of the organization whose destiny they get their kicks from influencing. The traditional "consensus among those willing to volunteer their time" method is much more likely to succeed.

This is not to say that it wouldn't be good for a process like this to be used to generate a "wish list" of sorts. Just don't expect the will of a majority not willing to do any work to have any effect on reality.

[Oh, here's another use of the word "hate!" Well, I've commented on that enough for it not to make sense to do so again.]

I don't like the ideas about "admins" in general. No one benefits from maintaining a distinction between "members" and "admins." It just encourages apathy from most and burnout from a few. I prefer as flat a membership structure as possible, with people referred to by the specific responsibilities they take on, rather than a sweeping statement of their "authority."

The best way to handle situations like this is to get the code for the web sites in question written and running on the web. I think this will be happening in the reasonably near future. As mentioned earlier in this thread, I won't agree to unconditional transfer of "admin status" without some clear agreements about behavior of said people. This is not subject to change, regardless of how many people vote for what.

Finally, members won't have the ultimate say. People who are willing to put significant time into implementing things and keeping them running smoothly will. At least in my case, I much prefer a smaller members base within the framework of an organization with which I'm proud to associate, and I'm willing to alienate unproductive people who nonetheless continue to view themselves as "customers" and demand changes.

C_Rdd just made a VERY nice effort toward some kind of protocol for merging TPU and YPN. I was really happy to see that posted. I believe it's the most useful message posted on this thread yet.

Quote:
If it is absolutely rejected (65%), the "white paper" goes ahead - This is how true democracy works.


This is not a good idea considering the limited amount of informed members there is in both TPU and YPN. I don't think more than 20 people on TPU know about YPN and I'd be surprised if more than 20 YPN members knows about TPU. 40 people being roughly the total number of people that know "What it's all about". That also doesn't mean those people will view things objectively.

However, I do not want to totally take down the idea. It would be the way to go in an organisation with few hundreds members.

I also think we are overestimating (I first) the potentiel negative or positive influence such a merger will have on both organisation. The number of active people on both site is very limited and I don't think they care if the channel they chat in or the forum they write in is related to YPN, TPU or a potentiel "Young Programmers Unite".

The people working on this are Smerdyakov, the YPN founders and the #tpu and #ypn channel users. Hardly more than 25 people...

I've got one technical thing about the YPN domain:
http://*.youngprogrammers.net is owned by the FSF, and not by us, so we have no rights to choose where it points to. So basically that "ypn domain points to tpu.org" is impossible. The FSF pays everything for it, and we respect that, so we (at least I) won't try to convince them to point our domain to somewhere else. In the end it's their domain, and not our's.
And, I agree about that Smerdyakov may be a great programmer, but if your human worth is like zero, e.g if you're a complete jackass, always following only _your_ thoughts, you're not in a state of being an OP. A OP in a programmer community, especially where young people come together, should have an open ear for other opinions, and should also be able to accept them and think about them, and not reject them without even thinking about them.
If there was a community, where the head OP is like that, and I meet that person first of all, I'd be out of that community in _no_ time, and I think there are quite many other peoples thinking like this, especially young people, because most young people judge things based on their first opinion, wheras grown-ups are capable of staying for a while and see how things turn out.
Also, the technologies behind such a web-site, which is trying to teach you programming, should have many features, but should be written in a common language, and well commented, so that everybody, even newcomers, can learn from it. Using rather unknow/complicated languages for teaching things is not the best imho. I know, now Smerdyakov will probably jump up and try to flame me again, but I give a shit. I also have my right to voice my opinions
Also, the website should look welcoming, which means that it has to be in a light color. Black/Dark colors are usually used for closed-minded things, or things which try to take a distance from the viewer/user. (And yes, I'm 100%ly sure about this, because I've read tons of books about design, regarding color usage) If the website doesn't look too welcoming and easy to use, many people will not even join, but leave immediately. OK, using Flash might be wrong, but there should also be some graphics used on the front page, which look cool, because many (again, especially young) people judge websites by their look.

That's it for now, later all
[addsig]

No flaming here; just honest criticism.

I'd say you're the one always following _your_ thoughts, since I've been "a C programmer" for many years and tried all the major alternatives to the tactics I currently recommend. You, however, just use ALL CAPITAL LETTERS to defend the practice of being closed minded and not taking the time to evaluate the actual helpfulness of my advice. I create a web page summarizing why I suggest what I do. You post about how "you hate me." Does anyone else see irony here?

As to the issue of the code behind the scenes of the web site itself serving as a key educational component, I have to disagree there. The main issue is providing the needed services in a timely manner. In fact, making it hard for newcomers to understand could be beneficial if it inspires them to learn more intellectually challenging areas of software development than web coding.

And I'll just ignore the part about web site appearance. Obviously that's extremely easy to change.