im sorry but today i stoped by #ypn to get help with a assembly problem i just started learning it this week well i didnt get any help but after idleing there a bit i got into a conversation and someone asked me what i coded in i said c and i was learning assembly almost the same time someone told me c and assembly was practically uselss after some more talk most of them was talking about lisp and ML am i missing somthing when did c and assembly becasue useless and lisp take over the coding world!

oh, that's our little troll.
He's called Smerdyakov, and for him the one and only language(s) are ML derivates. He has a particular disease about C/C++/asm (and all that widely used stuff). So, don't care about him too much
In fact, C is a very powerful and efficient language, but only if you use it properly. There are many languages which have adopted the syntax of C/C++ (guess why.... maybe because it sux? ). OK, Asm might not be the most efficient language, but it doesn't lollipop imho. It's maybe hard to learn, and very architecture dependant, and also compiler dependant, which makes it hard to learn it. I think you should use the language _YOU_ like, maybe try languages others are talking about. But the most important thing (if you don't have any particular needs) is that you feel well using that language. There's no point in listening to people who are fanatic about one language. Maybe it's worth trying, and using it if you like it, but as said before, the main point is that you feel comfortable using the language
[addsig]

I seconds Kagez's comments

hehe, good to hear that I'm not the only one left out with this opinion
[addsig]

well, you're all wrong. you don't have the knowledge to effectively choose a programming language, so better don't even try to program.

SCNR, etc.
~svara

hehe, our second trolly, svara
j/k
DON'T FEED THE TROLLS!

[addsig]

Somebody had to ruin it for you. Wonderfully put KaGez. [addsig]

heh you metioned using the language i like i cant remember how the topic came up but i said that i prefered c to mostly any other language and people had to say "well thats becasue your a newbie" ive coded in c for over two years and i know im not advanced but i know what works for me i guess maybe in a few years ill be cool enough to code in lisp

* ASM really whips my ass [addsig]

Just ignore everybody else's preferences about languages. I don't and it hasn't worked yet. [addsig]

Doing your own thing is always best, unless its different to me, then your just wierd
d-:

everyone has their own preference to what languages they love, ppl know me for my batch love, but who cares. Well I dont thats for sure.
(-;

c? newbie? go kick those jackasses ass who said that C/C++ is for newbies only.
[addsig]

People program for various reasons. A lot of teenagers program just "for fun" and don't really care about the quality of what they produce and how long they spend on unnecessary, repetitive coding and debugging tasks. If you're one of these, then my advice is not for you.

If you care about what you produce, then the evidence of decades of computer science research shows that C is a poor language for any use. In low-level "systems" domains, safe C dialects like Cyclone give you all the possibilities of C _without_ the possibilities to screw yourself over with useless features and _with_ a plethora of useful new features invented since C's 70's creation. In other domains, languages like Standard ML simply dominate C in overall usefulness. Development time is greatly reduced, code is easier to understand and re-use, AND good ML compilers can produce output competitive with good C compilers as far as runtime efficiency is concerned.

Don't believe me? Try learning a programming language not based on C or assembly before you're so quick to write off the advice of someone with more than a decade more experience than you programming in various languages, including lots of C.

C can't be too bad if everyone (emphesis on that) uses it, including Linux people.Quote:Development time is greatly reduced, code is easier to understand and re-use
I don't see how machine language could possibly bring you ANY of these. Unless ML stands for something else.

_________________
When I got VB, i could have flown without thrusters and shot down TIE Interceptors just by spitting at them.

[ This Message was edited by: dxprog on 2002-11-14 09:56 ]

ML is something completely different. It's one of the highest level programming languages around that's still suitable for compilation to efficient machine code.

Almost everyone uses very simple formulas to do things like physics. The people who make the major scientific advancements use much better tools, and we wouldn't be able to get anywhere without their contributions. See an analogy here?

Still won't make me stray from the norms. [addsig]

I see a pattern, its used by university ppl, and those with 'inteligence' all because one warped uni mind though it was a good idea and it suited him, and every other stupid 'cant get a real teaching job so i will become a uni lecture' though, lets follow him, so they teach their students who really dont know anything else exists, and if it does, it must lollipop, cause they will only teach us good stuff at uni. Or mabye its just my extreme dislike to uni and what it does to ppl who attend there.

I think ML languages are for those who want to spend time doin what they went to uni to do, physics, chemisty, stuff like that, they dont want to learn a new language, but If you like programming, and have the time and knowledge, c/asm and any other programming language has its good points that no other language can deceive it of.

(-;

Well, C/C++ is used in the professional programming industrie, becuase it's..... well, useless. That makes _absolutely_ (I can't make it bold enough ) no sence. Have you ever seen a program written in some ML? And, are those programs written in MLs spread? If not, why?
I still say:
USE THE LANGUAGE WHICH YOU THINK YOU CAN WORK BEST WITH. TROLLS ARE TROLLS, AND WILL BE TROLLS. YOU HAVE A FREEDOM TO CHOOSE YOUR DAMNED PROGRAMING LANGUAGE, SO USE THAT PRIVILEGE AND USE THE ONE _YOU_ LIKE!!. Did I make myself clear?
[addsig]

You all simply have no idea what you're talking about. What else can I say? Refusing to listen to advice from more experienced people is a very poor way to improve your skills, but it's unfortunately very common among teenaged programmers who just code because they like to type in funny words and make things happen.

There is a science to software development. Most people are ignorant of it. Any excuses you make based on "popularity" are contrived simply to justify your lazyness. Remember that most programmers "in industry" still used machine language only in the 1980's, lagging decades behind the development of high level languages in academia.

Oh, and Kage's bold rant in the last message is pretty funny. He seems to think people can know which programming languages work best for them without trying anything but assembly, C, and their derivatives.

[ This Message was edited by: Smerdyakov on 2002-11-14 21:34 ]

It might be a good thing to point out that these high level languages are named so, becuase the need low level code to allow them to run.

High level languages cant run without this low level stuff driving them.

Am I right, as I have not looked too much into ML stuff, but it seems more like a scripting language to me. therefor needing low level stuff.

I miss ppl. who code in java *cry [addsig]

Smerdyakov:
We all know that you know all programming languages, have done everything, have seen everything etc., so you don't need to point it out everytime that you are the best of all humans on this world. We already got it after that first time

Henning:
Well, java looks useful indeed, but since I'm not in need of such a high porability of the code I'm happy with C, which offers me just a great degree of easiness. Java offers me awsome portability, but the price for that porability is very high. I have to pay in speed. And, if you code 3d games in most cases speed is the biggest factor. Since i'm more the game developer, I wanna stick to C. I could use ASM if I need speed _that_ much, but in ASM's case I have to pay with the ease of use. I think C is just right, in speed and easiness. So currently I'm in no need of a new programming language.

Cyclone looks cool too, but it's still a rather incommonly used language, which makes it hard to find help and other people coding with it. The syntax might be simmilar to C/C++, but well.... Perl, PHP, Bash etc. all use a syntax simmilar to the C syntax, but you need help with all of them to get started.
On the other hand, most non-C-like-syntax languages I've seen up to now, like for example ASM, are rather hard to learn, and there is no such big advantage to learn them. ASM might be slightly faster than C, maybe others are too, but most of them are way harder to use, and simply increase development time of your programs. Another thing which is good about C is, that most APIs are aimed to be used for C/C++. With other languages you have only very few APIs you can choose (other languages than those which have a C like syntax). So, as a game developer, I think you don't wanna rewrite/port OpenGL just to be able to a simple 3d game. Why reinvent the wheel if somebody else already did it for you, and especially with big things like APIs? Currently, whatever you say, for game development (non-console, console in the meaning of text-console, not game console, games) C is still the best languages, simply because most books about gamedev are written using C/C++ and you can almost be 99.9% sure that you will find a API which suits your needs. Try to find as many working APIs as for C for a different language. I think you will have a hard time doing so
[addsig]

You have a very strange attitude, Kage. You seem to act like the meer fact that someone says something you don't like means that he is wrong. Also, you seem to think it is sinful to have more information about something than someone else and tell him of that fact.

As to some silly points in your last post:

* Development in pretty much every high level language significantly different from C takes _less_ time, not _more_.

* New high level languages almost invariably contain interfaces to C, so your API point is irrelevant.

Smerdyakov, thanks for all the advice...however, as you have already stated, not everybody you will find in this forum is going to mind it. Unfortunately, advice not minded is quite useless and pointless, no matter how good it is. According to my terms of logic, this means you did something quite useless and pointless by posting advice here.

I'm sure most of the people here will ignore it. However, I also think it's likely that there are some reasonable people reading this thread, and that it may inspire them to investigate new programming languages on their own.

cyclone is just an IDE?

Quote: I think you should use the language _YOU_ like, maybe try languages others are talking about.

<RANT>
I think you should use a powerful language. If no powerful tool (yes, there is more than one) is enjoyable to you, I think you have problems.

Cut the relativism sh*t and be honest with yourselves; it should be obvious to you that some tools are better than others.

So, do yourselves a favor! Don't use a nasty assembler, a PDP-11 assembler that thinks it's a language, or a PDP-11 assembler that thinks it's an object system.
</RANT>

Have a nice day!

[ This Message was edited by: Mookeen on 2002-11-15 10:01 ]

sacah:
Cyclone is a version of C for weenies out there, which don't know how to work with memory allocations and things. It will make all your knowledge about using memory and stack etc. near to useless, since you don't have to care about it. It's more like PHP than C imho.

/me applauses to Maltanar.
Great job you've done there
[addsig]

Of course, Kage is right! The major challenge of programming is "understanding the stack"! Who cares about efficient algorithms, reusability, or any of that garbage? Let the programmer worry about AS MANY IRRELEVANT DETAILS AS POSSIBLE so that he can maximize his chance to show his masculinity!

Really, Kage, I think it's clear to everyone by now how clueless you are when you start calling the world authorities on programming languages "weenies." Cyclone and other great modern languages are created by expert researchers who have information and experience at their disposal that you have no way to comprehend. Just give up your childish whining to protect your right to make it sound like you do any challenging programming.

To make myself clear: I think that there are lots of languages and programming concepts out there that are probably far, far above C/C++ level.

But still C and the like are the de facto standard out there. I would not consider anybody a programmer who does not know these langs (even if he favours other languages).

Also, calling Cyclone guys weenis and C coders teenagers who like to play is both absolutely irrational. I don't know much abou t Cyclone, but at least the C programmers achieved quite a lot playing their childish games.

But I'm afraid that this discussion has already crossed the small border between usefullness and personal affronts. [addsig]

I'd say lock it now before it's too late.

_________________
When I got VB, i could have flown without thrusters and shot down TIE Interceptors just by spitting at them.

[ This Message was edited by: dxprog on 2002-11-16 03:36 ]

good idea. to proove i'm a great op and deserve my status, i'll close it