Its sad, but true, New York city and Washington DC are in terror. 2 American Airlines Aircrafts probably type boeing 767! were kidnaped by terrorists. The first one was directed towards the south Tower of the World Trade Center, where it crashed near the top, causing several explosions and a mile high column of smoke. the second aircraft has been videotaped how it crashed about 1/3 way up in the second World Trade Center! Both of those crashes happened at arpund 8AM central american time! At arund 9:00 AM, an hour later, both of the buildings collapsed, buriing an estimated 20.000 people. This is one of the sadest news i ever heard since i live hear, since the World Trade centres always were the best sight in the new york skyline, and i was on top of the south tower in the beginning of summer. But that is not all. Another aircraft was kidnaped, the airline and type are not yet known , and was crashed into the PENTAGON, the government base station! Now, at around 10:25, part of the Pentagon have collapsed, as well! This is all so shocking. It is already known, that this had to be a terrorist attack, but the worst one so far in the history of the United States, i believe. It is shocking how fast everything happened, and it is terrifying that both buildings of the World Trade centers are gone. Forever. Here in my school lots of people are crying, either because they are from new york, or because they have relatives working at the world trade centers, and know that they were in there. All airports AMERICAWIDE and CANADAWIDE are closed, and won't open at least for another 8 hours. This is shocking even for me, even if i am not from America. Right now the news came in that another plane has crashed near Pittsburgh, Pensilvania, a UNITED aircraft.

I want to give my deepest feelings to all of those that have relatives in th world trade centers or pentagon or on one of the airplanes that crashed, and whoever felt that the World Trade Centers were uniqe.

oh, didn't notice you posted here as well.

i don't know what to say, this topic is so incredibly exhausted... we've said 100 times what we don't know, and repeated the same facts at least 50times...

we can't judge anybody, yet, tho this action IS horrible.

what i will however repeat, is that america and the christian world in general is not as superior and better as most of the commentators want to put it. What they seem to be saying is "the damn islam (and they do mean all islamics) killed an incredible amount of our great and superior people."

look on slashdot, at what they are saying on irc. they are all mad, i can't underand it.

what IS "america" shocked about? the millions of deaths? probably not, as they want to kill all palestinians, all afghanistan and whatnot. So, they are shocked about america as a whole being attacked. They can't believe it, as america is so much better, it just CAN'T be attacked.
Or what do you think? This is the state of mind i think i'm reading from a lot of commentaries out there.

just my little rant, as i didn't have much to say

even if you already talked about this so often, believe me, i did too, its still upsetting, and it doesn't matter HOW MANY TIMEs i see the airplane crashing into the building, it still is shocking and extremely hard to believe! You must think that in that moment that has been recorded on camera, 60 - 80 people on bord that machine lost their lives, just as the people in the office buildint it hit.

This isn't about America beeing superior or anything, no. If thats what the commentators in europe showed it as, then its wrong. The reporters here were all as shocked as the nation.
And NO, they are not saying that islam killed an incredible amount of people. God, what did you people hear?! They said that they think that Osama Bin Laddin did this, and NOT the islamic people. and they NEVER said anything about their people beeing superior, because not only americans died!!! 403 companies were in the World Trade Center Twin Towers! 20 japanese companies alone! there were germans in there, too, so don't come with stuff saying that they said their people are better than others!

This terrorist attack was done without any warning, without any signs that could have made the government be prepared, and they could have reacted faster. thats why this was such a cowardly act! because they attacked something that not only america was proud of, but something that the entire worlds market was part of!!!! And the people are shocked, because it happened LIVE IN TELEVISION, people were able to see the men flying down the building, see the building go down and probably kill 10 000 people instantly or slowly! Fsvara this might not be a big thing for you, but i had the emotions around me, i know the tears you see on television. and i know that if you don't stop these terrorists by either eliminating them or whatever, they will strike again, and whats next? nuclear weapons in big cities and boms in schools? whats next if we don't stop whats out there?

and america is a superior power

superior power, yes. but not the better nation. and it's not the commentators that showed it like that, but all the americans i talked to on irc and whose comments i read on various discussion forums.

i guess some of you will understand what i mean. i wasn't referring to the act itself, there's not much to say about that anyway. it's happened, it's horrible. i meant the reaction of a lot of americans, and these were really scary to me.

well what you have to see is that americans are angry. Especially now. The terrorists took a piece of landscape from them, and with it, too many people. Now they are angry, and want revenge. I think thats why they talk like that. For the first time, the entire nation is backing up Pres. Bush. And u know hes a republican... and u know what they know how to do... warfare... i think it is pretty extreme that we are at deathcon 5, the highest possible alert status. Status Delta. THis is serious. If it prooves to be the OSama bin ladin organization, then Afghanistan has probably 2 days or so to give them out and hand them over to the us. if not, it is VERY likely that the Taliban have 10 hours to evacuvate the city(s), cuz then the missiles and the toops come in, i'm sure of that. and that is scary, yeah it is

OK, 1st of all, Defcon 5 is peacetime, and they didn't change that. They are at Delta something (I believe 4), which is totally different.

Also, I think it's unwise to just nuke the hell out of Afghanistan, like some people ar calling for. We need to take time to regroup and actually 100% determine who's behind this. If it's actually bin Laden, then good. I'm all for public castration. If it's not him, then destroying Afghanistan and the Taliban isn't going to solve anything, just kill more people. This would make us no better than them.

exactly. it is very probable that it the attacks were related to ossama bin laden, and that makes your last comment extremely flawed. The people who planned this are not a whole country. They are the followers of someone, probably bin laden. And then they are terrorists. So they are not hiding in any cities.

What you are suggesting is basically to kill all innocent afghan people and let the ones who did it live. you might be angry, but what for? i hope the higher placed americans have more intelligence and realize there is no place for anger. The ones guilty must be found, and it has to be guaranteed that such an attack will not happen again.

In fact, I really can't understand why a lot of american people say they are christians. Heck, there's even "In god we trust" written on the bank notes. And yet, they want "revenge". Can't you understand revenge is pointless? It will help NOBODY, only ruin the lives of even more people.

Read my previous posts twice. I didn't in any way mention that I think it was good that americans died. I know there were not only americans, but that doesn't matter.

In fact, I'd rather see the UN handle the next steps. The high placed americans seem just too proud of themselves and stabbed from the back right into their heart.

You're telling me I don't understand the situation, "this is not a big thing for me", and you are so much better informed because you "had the tears around you".

Better think twice before you say I am misinformed or don't care. Judging from your comments, it is YOU who should think a bit more about it. [addsig]

btw, when the americans bombed hiroshima and nagasaki, did they tell the japanese to prepare for it, to evacuate the city and shoot down the plane that dropped the bomb?

of course not. And that makes the "cowardly act" argument flawed, too.

Yes, it was during war, but it doesn't make it any different. Nuclear weapons were something new at the time, and it's not a very chivalrish idea to use houndreds of thousands of people as guinea pigs to test them.

Ok, first of all, they are at just state DELTA, there is no number or anything after that, and that is the highest possible alert status. My dads colleague's brother is a general at the Pentagon, and he knows about that stuff. Then, i never said that we should nuke the afghanistans. The Talibans are KNOWN to give support for Osama, and that is why right now probably bush and the others are trying to settle this so that they stop supporting osama. If they don't then god knows what happenes. I am quoting from the news: A Senator said: (forgot the name) Quote: "May god have mercy, because we won't"

and the NATO gave the Us green light, that they support the us in any action, so does the UN. a UN official said: Quote: "We in the UN are from all over the world, but today, we are all New Yorker's"

And i think from what you can pick up in the news here tells you that the decision is already made about what will happen. the soldiers here WANT to go to battle, they are pissed off, my friends dad is a F16 squad leader or so, and he said that he knows that his boys and the rest are pissed, and mad.

Insult me in whatever way you want, i didn't say that what we should do is go in and bomb everybody. that is NOT what i suggested, READ what i wrote. what i said is that if they don't hand them out, it is likely to get bad. i didn't say ANYTHINg about killing innocent people. we should go in and take out military targets, especially the boot camps where the people of osama bin ladden are trained. fsvara, i know, too, that it is wrong to kill just out of revenge. And what we here don't want, either, is to go in and kill innocent people that have NOTHING to do with this. And i hope that that is not what they will do. And its just typically you to insult people with such pathetic sentences like Quote: "i hope the higher placed americans have more intelligence" i think that is just a so pathetic way to try and make a point.

and DUDE, we know already that things like these will happen again, if Osama doesn't terrorize, somebody else will. but we have to try to prevent an attack THIS BIG from happening again.








In fact, I really can't understand why a lot of american people say they are christians. Heck, there's even "In god we trust" written on the bank notes. And yet, they want "revenge". Can't you understand revenge is pointless? It will help NOBODY, only ruin the lives of even more people. And the UN is handling this, with the US. The us is leading everything, the Nato and the UN are backing the us up. yeah, you are right, americans are proud, proud of their freedom and their country. If you aren't proud of ur country, then thats sad. And this is the first time since Pearl harbor that america has been attacked on their own ground. HA, why don't you READ? if you go back and read, you see that i didn't say that i was so much better informed than you. i didn't say anything about that.

and refferring to the attack on the japanese is just.... we are in a new age, people tend to think these days before they do something. The Americans informed the Japanese of the drop of the bomb as much as the japanese informed the Americans of the attack on pearl harbor

Quote:if not, it is VERY likely that the Taliban have 10 hours to evacuvate the city(s), cuz then the missiles and the toops come in, i'm sure of that. [...] Then, i never said that we should nuke the afghanistans.

I also never said that you mentionen nukeing the afghanis(tans ). I was referring to your enlightened text portion quoted above.

Quote:
The Talibans are KNOWN to give support for Osama, and that is why right now probably bush and the others are trying to s
ettle this so that they stop supporting osama. If they don't then god knows what happenes.

And I know they won't stop supporting them. They are fighting a holy war, the goal is to die in that holy war (against america in that case). So why would the stop supporting him? Just because america is telling them to? Certainly not. They want the war.

Quote: "We in the UN are from all over the world, but today, we are all New Yorker's"

Heh, that's not about giving green light, he wants to express his solidarity with the victims. You probably still haven't understood that there is a distinction between the events themselves and the response/reaction of people.

Quote:the soldiers here WANT to go to battle, they are pissed off

Good for you. So in the american military, the _soldiers_ make the decisions based on wether they WANT to fight or not? I don't care about your dad's friend's cousin's father's uncle (or whatever) and not about your connections with the military and government. I don't know what you found so repelling about my first reply to your topic, but you obviously are in the mood to argue with me. As you wish.

Quote:Insult me in whatever way you want,

Hm, that like confirms my expectations. You don't really want to talk about what happens, you want to compensate for your nervosity. I can understand that. I suggest buying a punching ball.

Quote:i didn't say that what we should do is go in and bomb everybody. that is NOT what i suggested, READ what i wrote.

Once again, I didn't say you suggested that. You said that's what was going to happen.

Quote:And its just typically you to insult people with such pathetic sentences like "i hope the higher placed americans have more intelligence" i think that is just a so pathetic way to try and make a point.

Good. You seem to know me really well. You might not have noticed that no, I wasn't trying to make a point, that was irony.
Now. good question, why irony? Simply because you are starting to piss me off. Do you think I'm impressed by your F16 squadron leader? Do you think I regard you as the no1 reference for everything american?
My first comment was a 100% pure rant about the comments I heard on IRC and slashdot. And you are making it sound like I was trying to express my support for the terrorists, and was attacking you personally.

Quote:and DUDE, we know already that things like these will happen again, if Osama doesn't terrorize, somebody else will. but we have to try to prevent an attack THIS BIG from happening again.

This time, I even agree, D00D, almost. To achieve the most, try everything. Everything has to be oundertaken to prevent terrorist attacks from happening in the future.

Quote:And the UN is handling this, with the US. The us is leading everything, the Nato and the UN are backing the us up.

Of course the NATO is cooperating. There's the famous fifth paragraph.
But other than that, you missed my point, again. I in no way said "the nato should do something about it" or something like this.
I expressed my wish for international organizations like the UN to handle the further development. Because I have the feeling that most US officials are incapable of handling this is a human way, because they feel betrayed, and attacked personally.

Quote:And this is the first time since Pearl harbor that america has been attacked on their own ground. HA, why don't you READ?

Thanks for reminding me to read. I had just forgotten than (obviously). It just seemed to me like the us has been attacked often on their own ground after pearl harbour.
By terrorists, anarchists, and whatnot. I always thought Pearl Harbour was the last attack on us ground led by a nation and not individuals. Well, thanks for pointing out my error. But btw, WHAT country was it attacking the world trade center and pentagon?

Quote:and refferring to the attack on the japanese is just...

Yeah, come on, tell me *what* is it? Telling somebody his argument is a "..." always seemed pretty convincing to me.

Quote:The Americans informed the Japanese of the drop of the bomb as much as the japanese informed the Americans of the attack on pearl harbor

Sure, everybody was informed. That's also one of the reasons why so many people died in nagasaki, hiroshima, pearl harbour and during the whole ww2. They all knew, they just found it funny to die.

lol, sorry, but i just read everything again, and it now seems just funny to me, not because of what happened, but of what we made, it, lol we went away from the subject a little, and it was like a 'personal fight' and that was not what i had in mind. sure, we have different perspectives on this topic, but isn't that what this is all about? about different people having different opinions and thoughts? well letz take stance, i think that america should take action, military action if you want to call it that way, but i don't want this to be a slaugher in which innocent lives are lost, because that would be worse. and i think we should stop discussing what has happened, because what might come could be just as scary and just as frightening as what happened.

yeah...

Wow, this almost turned into a fight such that YPN hasn't seen. If you want big fights about this, go to another board (sorry for the name-drop, but fabs did the same thing over there when this was being created).

1st of all, I didn't mean nuke in the literal sense of using nuclear weapons, I meant smth like just carpet bombing everything east of Kuwait.

2nd of all, and I know I'll be in the minority for this, but how old are you Sebi? Knowing the other people on this board, I'd say probably not old enough for the draft. I, however, am. All the people I've heard clamoring for invasion are way past the age that they'd be forced over there. If there was a chance you'd have to go over there, opinions might be different.

Regardless, if I insulted you, I'm sorry - it wasn't intentional. I just thought that the response to this has been rash and I honestly hope we don't act too swiftly on this. I'm not saying that we should just sit here and let bin Laden bomb the crap out of us. I'm just saying we shouldn't immediately point fingers. If we listened to all the accusations that I've heard, we'd now be invading Canada, Japan, Germany, Palenstine, Israel, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and India.

To fsvara:
Hiroshima and Nagasaki aren't apt comparisons to this. When we dropped the bombs on them, we were in the middle of a declared war. Awful as it sounds, they might have actually saved lives. The alternative to this would have been a land invasion on Japan. It was predicted that 1 million Americans would have died, but we would have eventually taken over the island, after having to kill virtually every Japanese person on the island. This is totally different.

(Note: This was not meant in any way to be a flame directed at Japan... It's just what I've been taught in my American (and undoubtedly skewed) history classes.)

[ This Message was edited by: Govtcheez on 2001-09-14 18:10 ]

i see the point you are making, it is true that new evidence showed too many suspects for this crime. Our history teacher who now really ONLy talks about this (good for us, cuz the Renaissance is pretty boring!!!) and she said that she head that the FBI recieved over 20 000 hints that could lead to who did this, on their homepage. crazy, there is just too many people that could have done this. and i, too disagree with just going over there and bomb everything. because i mean, osama is pretty damn smart, and he got trained BY THE CIA when the US was fighting the soviets. So he knows the strategies of the CIA and FBI to somewhat... i think... and I BET that all of his training camps are deserted, and empty. LOL, think about what happened in the golf (or is is gulf?) war. It took the US troops 4 months alone to get in position to strike! and that was closer to the us than where afghanistan is if it turns out to be afganistan. well.... i don't know why, but it kinda sounds like Eric that posted as Gvmt cheese or so... if not, sorry, no insult btw... i'm 15, thats just about how old fsvara, fabs, peter, and some others are... well again i think we should settle this and see what happenes next, because this surely is a big thing.

I hav gotten into very emotional argues about these issues too and I didn't feel like feeding this one . (it tires me out incredibly)

First of all, I think we can agree on that 1.The terrorist attack was terrible, 2.Any attack that wastes innocent lives is terrible.

Regardless of this, a lot of questions come up when hearing the reactions all over the world, but most specificly in the USA.

We all know that these issues are heavily layered: cause and effect, cause and effect and so on. We will learn a lot more about this during our lifetimes.

I know that the USA has always been a big arse in international politics and business. This does of course not depend on the people but on the underlying powers (financial+political), just as everywhere else. The USA has grown to be the mightiest nation and the hotbed of corporate corruption, hypocrisy and brainwash. Again, this is not an offense to anyone american. I am pointing at the corporations and the politicians who are being manipulated by them and who pay the manipulation forward...

A lot of the citizens of the western world are totally under-educated and I think the USA is a world leader in this too. It's not because there are no resources - it's because an entire society has been built upon illusions and lies.

A common illusion was that "we are safe, we are in the USA". This was proven wrong this tragical Tuesday. Now a lot of people may wake up to what else they've been missing.

People do sometimes get schocked when I talk about these things in connection with the terrible massacre that just happened. But it's when I hear self-ensured talk about democracy, freedom and good vs. evil that I just can't take anymore.

I certainly do not consider USA the Land of the Free. The western world is marked by corruption and brainwash, now that is not what I call free. Democracy seems to be something very hard to live up to and I think we got a good example of US democracy during the presidential election.

I strongly condemn the terrorists. Those responsible has to be punished - but I hope that the USA will indeed think twice before each step. A demonstrative revenge would be the worst thing to do in this situation, even if it would still some people's thirst for blood.

I see a world that is built on domination instead of understanding. I condemn terrorism but I just as in some countries freedom fighters are labeled terrorists, we might anytime label anyone a terrorist. This time, and all other times when people are killed like this, they are no doubt terrorists and this kind of terrorism has to be stopped. My point is that we all define things and expect the world to work that way. Maybe we get the definition of "terrorism" right. But everything else?

The USA is the land of the free, the Savior of the nations, the Good in the fight against Evil and a good ideal for every nation to achieve. Will this dogm live on and be enforced on more and more of the world along with all the other uttetly untrue and above all, pointless definitions?

Let's instead build a world upon understanding, on acceptance, respect and love, that is what I say. This might sound very naive and pathetic, but what can you do in a world with millions of different views and opinions, and a LOT of extreme opinions? (such as the islamistic extremists) I actually understand why some people start throwing rocks from the street in desperation.

I find my pathetic little dream a lot more appealing than a world of false saints, manipulation, corruption, egoism, greed and hate.

just my litte footnote .

peter, i agree.

Quote: A common illusion was that "we are safe, we are in the USA". This was proven wrong this tragical Tuesday. Now a lot of people may wake up to what else they've been missing.


well except for this part a little, it is true that people always thought that they are safe in the USA. well that was very true, too. I think the USA is a very safe place to live, not including the crime threat you have here, because you have that threat everywhere in the world. What i mean is that the army and navy and air force are very high developed. and it was safe. But... it can't always be that way. Osama maybe just recovered from the 1993 bombing, and we were safe since then. and now he striked again!

well that sounds kinda corny and unclear, so lemme clearify: i think that the people always knew that they were vulnerable and that there was a potential threat and danger, and that they weren't completely safe. But instead of recognizing this fact, they went in denial and told themselves that they were safe and that nothing could happen. well.. and now i think people 'woke up' and see the reality. And i think the REALITY is that NO MATTER WHERE YOU GO, there ALWAYS IS a pottential Threat.
and if afghanistan doesn't hand out osama( i hope they do) then as some CI agents said, then they will pulverize them off the face of earth. And if THAT would happen, that would probably be the BIGGEST mistake they ever did in history next to the japan nuking. i hope there is a way to settle this with minimal loss and maximum gain. i hope you don't take this the wrong way

i think you already heard from this, but to those that didnt: today in the news they said that the air force already had 2 F16 fighters tailing the airplanes that crashed into the WTC, but the problem was that they couln't be there in time to shoot them down. They said that normally it is FORBIDDEN to shoot down a civil airliner, except if the president gives permission. He did, and they were too late, sadly. Then, they said that the plane crashed into the pentagon at 9:39AM or something. And the air force had 2 F15's starting at 9:35AM again, to shoot down the airplane that crashed into the pentagon. but it wasn't there fast enough. and the last plane, the one that went down in pensylvania, they say that one was really shot down by an F16, because that one was the plane furthest away from its 'mistery' target. i think that this sounds pretty realistic, and i think its true, and not just some other thing the news made up to get the viewers to them.

but i really think that we should not talk about this in too much detail anymore, because i think that everybody heard the story, and that everybody knows the facts, and that everybody has a deep feeling of sadness in his heart. So i think we should rather be praying and donating for the people that lost their loved ones and the people that died. Like here in our school, they collected $9000 in 2 days and give it to the fund that helps the people that could be rescued alive, and donating blood would also help. well i think this is gonna be my last post on this topic, because i just don't know what else to say except to say what is in the news. I'm out of words

Quote:
A common illusion was that "we are safe, we are in the USA".


I think that indeed, that's very important. The USA have tried to achieve perfect security, as so many before them. And all previous attempts have failed.

The chinese built a wall around their country thousands of years ago. Yet, it didn't save them from mongols. The NAZIs built a 'wall' of bunkers on the coast of the invaded france. Yet it didn't keep the allys from landing in the Normandie.

And now america is trying a similar thing. The sattelites to destroy intercontinental nuclear missiles. That is like the most stupid defense initiative possible.

First, the technology is so incomplete that from 20 tests they did, only 1 succeeded.
Second, it would destabilize the balance of power. Here of course that must be read as 'balance of nukes', as there is no balance of power between the us and the rest of the world.
Third, as the terrorists attacks have proven, there is no need for nuclear missiles in today's warfare anymore. They are too hard to build, too expensive to launch, so only major countries can afford to have some. These attacks showed however by how uncomplicated methods similar results can be attained.

This dream to be immune against nukes is idiotic in every sense. Better use the money for something else.

Absolute security has never worked and will never work. The age of nukes is over. Biowarfare and Chemical warfare is more efficient, cheaper and easier.

By more efficient i mean the relation quantity,easy to produce vs. destruction.

For a nuke you need a bit more than 10kg of Plutonium or Uranium to have a critical mass. Then you need conventional explosives to make the two parts of the fissile mass form a critical mass. Then it is very hard to optimize the length during which the fissile mass is connected, as the violence of the explosion will rip it apart and stop the chain reaction.

Whereas with say 15kg of some bacteries, you could kill a couple of thousands of cities without even damaging any buildings.

[ This Message was edited by: fsvara on 2001-09-15 09:27 ]

Well, that sounds very promising... we seem to face a bright future if things go as they seem to do today.

lol, our future sounds VERY promising i think you are very right svara. Except that i believe the anti ballistic missile shield is land based, sending small projecties to 'kill' the missels in air. they had 1 sucess out of 3 i believe it was. BUT here is the BUT: WHY? there is NO enemy that would be a 'nuklear or missile' threat to the US. THey are trying to fight an enemy that doesn't exist!

But the wall thing is so true, and as i said, you cannot be 100% secure! there could always be somebody to cause damage and life loss!!!

and it is very right that we got out of the cold war with the nukes. WE are in a 'new' age, i maen, there are other much worse weapons. Take the hydrogen bomb! The IBM supercomputer with its 8192 processors and its 6Terabyte ram and more than 160 Terabyte or so HDD space, even with that speed, it can only process the first 10 millionth of a second of a Hydrogen Bomb explosion. Must be pretty bad! Or i just read about the 'E-Bomb' sending out an electromagnetic pulse, that could knock out ALL electronic devices in a PRETTy big radius, even as big as the US! that could knock us back into the 'stone' age! pretty scary! well... and it would only cost $500 to built the head of such a rocket!!! THAT IS REALLY SCARY!

I agree with svara, yet I have another point of view.

1) The Americans were pretty much asking for it, they bomb the scandisk out of everyone and then not expect someone to retaliate.

2) They jumped to conclusions and framed the muslim community in general.

3) They are asking for a war, one they WILL NOT win.

4) If they bomb afghanistan (again) the first time it was them, but they just deny everything like usual. There is going to be 3 more suicide bombing missions, which will kill millions more of so called innocent americans.

5) Why makes americans more innocent then anyone else in the world. In bosnia people die by the thouands everyday, or atleast they did. Same in Albania, in Palestine. How about 1,000,000 innocent people dead in iraq, and still people dying from the radiation. Hiroshima, who the scandisk made The U.S. god, they have no right to take lives of innocents like that. In a time of war or not.

6) They want to cry about it being an act of war. THIS IS A TIME OF WAR! Like I said, you cant scandisk everyones mom in the ass then not expect the son to knock your horny ass out..

Sorry for the language, but I have strong emotions and opinions towards the subject of the U.S, we, the arabs are the so called terrorists? What about what they do?

johny-5

I agree with svara, yet I have another point of view.

1) The Americans were pretty much asking for it, they bomb the scandisk out of everyone and then not expect someone to retaliate.

2) They jumped to conclusions and framed the muslim community in general.

3) They are asking for a war, one they WILL NOT win.

4) If they bomb afghanistan (again) the first time it was them, but they just deny everything like usual. There is going to be 3 more suicide bombing missions, which will kill millions more of so called innocent americans.

5) Why makes americans more innocent then anyone else in the world. In bosnia people die by the thouands everyday, or atleast they did. Same in Albania, in Palestine. How about 1,000,000 innocent people dead in iraq, and still people dying from the radiation. Hiroshima, who the scandisk made The U.S. god, they have no right to take lives of innocents like that. In a time of war or not.

6) They want to cry about it being an act of war. THIS IS A TIME OF WAR! Like I said, you cant scandisk everyones mom in the ass then not expect the son to knock your horny ass out..

Sorry for the language, but I have strong emotions and opinions towards the subject of the U.S, we, the arabs are the so called terrorists? What about what they do?

johny-5

I agree with svara, yet I have another point of view.

1) The Americans were pretty much asking for it, they bomb the scandisk out of everyone and then not expect someone to retaliate.

2) They jumped to conclusions and framed the muslim community in general.

3) They are asking for a war, one they WILL NOT win.

4) If they bomb afghanistan (again) the first time it was them, but they just deny everything like usual. There is going to be 3 more suicide bombing missions, which will kill millions more of so called innocent americans.

5) Why makes americans more innocent then anyone else in the world. In bosnia people die by the thouands everyday, or atleast they did. Same in Albania, in Palestine. How about 1,000,000 innocent people dead in iraq, and still people dying from the radiation. Hiroshima, who the scandisk made The U.S. god, they have no right to take lives of innocents like that. In a time of war or not.

6) They want to cry about it being an act of war. THIS IS A TIME OF WAR! Like I said, you cant scandisk everyones mom in the ass then not expect the son to knock your horny ass out..

Sorry for the language, but I have strong emotions and opinions towards the subject of the U.S, we, the arabs are the so called terrorists? What about what they do?

johny-5

dude, you should put a dick in your mouth, cuz whats comming out of it lollipops! i mean the language, this topic isn't supposed to be a flamming war, if you have an opinion, you can express it, normally. The Us government has a PRIME suspect, Osama bin ladden, not the Muslims or Arabs.

well dunno what the hell i should say about the rest you wrote. I'm too damn tired to talk about this, again. i just want to say that what you said about innocent people being killed in war, thats true. And isn't that why the others fight back, too? cuz they are mad and angry?

well think about your language before you write something

doesn't matter, we've gotten somewhat off topic anyway

has anyone of you heard the saying "The little man's nuke"...
"Die Atombombe des kleinen Mannes"

That's actually referring to chemical weapons. As I said, only large nations can produce nukes.
Gas is super-easy and super-efficient. All these sophisticated weapons the US is building or trying to build.... They can hurt a known strong enemy.
That once was the soviet union. But nowadays, russia is not behind any 'iron curtain' anymore, it's become a rather poor country. And still, the US seems to focus on weapons against a highly industrialized super-power.

I don't understand it, and it seems pretty stupid to me. America's enemies of today certainly won't use transcontinental nuclear missiles.

Haha, johny-5 comes along expressing his opinion in a johny-5 way . Nice to see you.

Well, it's true, we have to take one step backward and see the entire landscape and not just what happened this Tuesday. Those innocent people didn't ask for this attack, but neither did those in Hiroshima, Vietnam, Afghanistan or anywhere else.

http://www.zmag.org/crisescurevts/murder.htm
http://users.neca.com/ouellette/peoplecount/Iraqi_sanctions2.html

just two examples.

For Swedes, there is a great summary hereh: ttp://www.aftonbladet.se/vss/kultur/story/0,2789,89323,00.html
I am looking for the English original...

Hate breeds hate. Even if this was only an act of totally wack maniacs, there is a reason for people supporting them. But these attacks will only make it worse.

A lot of countries will now "unite in the fight against terrorism". How cute. Israel can label the Palestinians terrorists, Russia can label the Chechens terrorists, everyone who is privileged may label anyone else a terrorist. The corrupt power of the USA is growing by the minute.

Now I consider THAT scary.

[ This Message was edited by: Peter on 2001-09-16 12:41 ]

what i think is scary to add to what fsvara said is that its estimated that russia still has around 10 - 30000 nuclear missiles spread throughout the country in bunkers and silos. and since the country is pretty much breaking appart i believe, any general or terrorist could gain entry to those silos and launch the missile. i think that having those thought the president wanted to build the shield. well... there is the threat, even if it is VERY SMALL

Well, I would consider it quite an idiotic thing to launch an intercontinental nuclear missile against the USA. That way they know exactly what area to bomb.

No, the terrorists could with ease take an atom bomb into a city and trigger it there - or hijack a plane and do the same thing as last time but including a nuclear load.

That's why it's totally stupid to do Star Wars. It will just be a demonsration that "we can do this" and it will only cause problems. I'm afraid that these terror bombings will be a good reason for the US government to waste further billions of tax money to build bombs and war machines.

:sigh: - I know that merely by replying to this, I'm gonna sound like the ignorant American dick that so many people think we are. Sorry, not true...

First off, I'm not here enough to know who eric is, but I'll say I'm not him

I'm only gonna address Johnny-5's tremendous idiocy in here. The rest of you, I pretty much agree with. What he said really pissed me off. I, too, have strong opinions about the US, and living here, I think I'm a little more qualified to speak about it.

1) How were 50000 people working in offices asking for it? They didn't have anything to do with anything. If the terrorists really have smth against the US gov't and our military, then why the hell do they attack civilian targets?

2) The muslim community in general is not being framed. True, there are people clamoring for the blood of all Muslims, but these people are the types that make me sad to be an American. The rescue workers and people banding together to try to recover are the types that make me proud to be an American.

3) How would we not win the war? I know this sounds like over-confidence, but let's think about this. We're the most powerful country in the world, with the backing of almost every other country in the world. I ask again, how would we not win?

4) I'm not even going to bother with this point.

5) True, many people have dies in other countries, and that makes it no less terrible. I don't recall that many instances of this many people being killed at one time. Maybe I just haven't heard about it, but I don't know of any other 110 story buildings being destroyed in 2 hours anywhere else. Also a big stink is made because (and this is one point of the American stereotype that I'm willing to concede) we're very loud.

6) It might be a time of war as far as you're concerned, but I assure you, there was nothing having to do with war in all the banks and companies in the WTC.

Also Peter:
While it's conceivable smth like your nuke on a plane thing could happen, the success of this was largely dependant on secrecy, and it's a little more difficult to smuggle a nuke onto a plane than a boxcutter (despite what movies tell us)

[ This Message was edited by: Govtcheez on 2001-09-17 15:45 ]

Govtcheez: what you just told me was very right. It's not very easy to smuggle a nuclear weapon. But I find it more likely that they attempt to do that than lauching an intercontinental missile.

The main reason for this getting so much attention is that it happened in the West, a lot of people got killed in Serbia, a lot were killed in Chechnya, in Iraq or any country of choice. But what happened there is not really important to the average western citizen. What happens in the US is.

i'm not american, but when i see the videos of new york, when they show men and women from chicago that came there just to HELP, it does make me proud that i can live in this country and be part of society here. In 2 days our school raised $22 000 which we gave to the red cross for the family of the victims and the people that are hurt. It might not seem like a lot compared to what big companies donate, but if you think that this money comes from around 500 families that all cared about this and were willing to give their own money because they saw what happened, i tink it is a great thing. Now i doubt that jonny 5 is american or ever lived here because of the way he talks about this. And i believe that what he was saying might be his opinion, but it was so ice cold and heartless and for me not acceptable that i don't even want to respond to his topic. Well first of all i want to know what the hell he means by that there will be another 3 suicide attacks?! This sounds like you are part of the organization and know about this. Then i agree with everything Govtcheese said, because its true. America is a superpower, and with the UN and the NATO backing us/them up, it seems hardly unlikely for us/them to loose this war. The reason i put us/them, is because i'm not sure where i count myself to, i'm not american, but i live here.... so its kinda hard for me to say what perspective i am in. i prefer us, tho... well anyway... Let me ask you jonny, would you like a airplane that has its tanks filled to the top with fuel, to fly into your officebuilding or your home with 300 MPH or more???? i don't htink thats what you want. U think the people in the WTC or Pentagon wanted that? no, surely not. Thats why i don't understand why the organization bombed a civil building. If osama bin laddin was this, and i am SOOO sure of that, because they tell the news all evidence leads to him, and now think about how much the FBI must know about the criminals if they can tell the news who is their big suspect? they must know a LOT about who it did, cuz i don't tink that the FBI would tell the news more than 20% of what they know, probably less. So say it was bin ladden, he hates the us, right? But it still is wrong to kill innocent people, even if you hate them. True, this happenes in lots of countries, but never before did an organization come to the US to kill so many people. Now it is true that lots of innocent people die in wars around the world. but the us doesn't have anything to do with those wars, or mostly they don't. If Pakistans and Afghanistans kill each other, then that killing has nothing to do with the us, and that is war, and not peace time.

hey gvmt cheese where in the us are u?

From MI, near Lansing...

Sebi - From OK, not an Okie, not an American? That's a little confusing.

Read the following article:
http://pilger.carlton.com/print/77937

The terrorist attacks might not have much to do with those "wars" (most of those are not wars, only parts of sanctions that the Western powers force upon Eastern countries.. see Iraq, where 500 000 children have so far died because of the sanctions. I don't remember having an international quiet moment for them...), but we cannot see the terrorist attacks as something completely unrelated.

I agree with you that it's unjustifiable to kill innocent people. But I am not at all happy about the war (and especially the propaganda war) that took off after these terrorist attacks. I don't think it will lead us any closer to global justice.

Good to see you also Peter,

Gotcheez, when one fights a war agaisnt the shadows, one will not win. Think about it, if the United States launches a War against Afghanistan, then the people in the United States go terrorist, muslims or arabs in general, they will start to go suicide bombings on every place you can think of, and works same way in every other country. Then the United States goes back and bombs their home bases which then triggers more hijackings and more and more innocent people die. You know who will win this war? NO ONE! Its a chain reaction, an interesting point came out today on CNN, this may sound a little racist but 35 jewish workers at the WTC did not show up for work tuesday? And why have they not yet let us listen to whats on the black box? Sounds a little weird doesnt it. And I am in Canada so I have all the facts, just because you are American does not make you more eligable to be right then I. When you say Osama Bin Laden, yeah he is the prime suspect, but the American people are retarded, they dont understand that its OSAMA BIN LADEN that they have to take out, not go and threaten mosques and beat up arab teens in high school, and jump arabs on the streets. The other day, a canadian smacked my friend because she was arab, when I approached him, he said that it was because he was mad, but I was also mad now, so I broke his nose. Its all getting WAAAAAAAAAAAAY Out of hand, I think that they should not have mentioned Osama Bin Retards name until they were 110% sure it was him! Because look what they did, intentionally or not intentionally, they did this.

American people in the WTC, what about the Iraqi people, were they asking to be nuked? Or the Japanese? What makes the U.S. eligible to nuke the crap out of them, they werent asking for it, yet they did it anyways, this "war" isnt a war against a single crime, its a war agaisnt all crimes. Innocent people arent supposed to die, but the idiocy and stupidity of the american congress is what caused this, and what ever happens next is clearly there faults. They are going to bomb the crap out of afghanistan, and then like I said, a chain reaction and more death, and more terror, and more of the innocent shall die. Think about it...

Quote:And why have they not yet let us listen to whats on the black box? Sounds a little weird doesnt it.
Think about it. Don't they want to see if they can get any information out of the black box found in the Pentagon and was almost very destroyed, and if they can find the ones in the WTC ruins, that they can compare the results and give a complete statement?

Quote:I think that they should not have mentioned Osama Bin Retards name until they were 110% sure it was him!

Now activate your brain cells again. How much do u think does the FBI and the government tell the media about what they know??? u really think that the FBI would tell CNN 100% of what they know? no, of course not. again, i believe that they only share about 20% of what they know with the media. So its foolish to say that they aren't sure. If the president names bin ladden as the primary suspect, don't u think that he is 100% sure he did it before he sais his damn name? u think they send pakistany into afghanistan to tell the Taliban they get 72 hours to hand OSama out or they will have to face a strike and he isn't SURE that it wasn't osama? now u should think.


and hey govtcheese: i am from austria, but moved to Tulsa, OKlahoma. So i am from or i live in Tulsa, but i'm not an okie, since i'm not born here kinda confusing, i know

Quote: The other day, a canadian smacked my friend because she was arab, when I approached him, he said that it was because he was mad, but I was also mad now, so I broke his nose.

Firstly i don't think that this really happened, i think u made this up, or u'd be in court now, cuz the guy sued you. Secondly, i don't think that this is something to be damn _proud_ of. I mean, ur the one that sais no violence, and don't kill everybody, but u break someones nose. yeah, thats what you call Global Peace



Quote:American people are retarded, they dont understand that its OSAMA BIN LADEN that they have to take out, not go and threaten mosques and beat up arab teens in high school, and jump arabs on the streets.

Did you not hear what the president said? "i wand Osama bin Ladden, dead or alive" they are going after osama stupid, thats why they go to afghanistan and tell them to hand out Osama and not support him anymore.

::sigh:: - Damn AOL. Now I'll try to type this again...

Johny, saying that all Americans are retards and are abusing Muslims is no more correct than saying that every Arab person is responsible for what happened. It's a gross generalization, and totally wrong. Some people are doing this, but they hardly represent a crossection of America.

I agree with sebi about pretty much everything. What do you think they were gonna do when they found the black box, broadcast it on Springer? They'll analyze it and examine it, and eventually we might hear it. Honestly, what would the gov't gain from making the tape public? They'd just make a bad situation worse.

Along with sebi, I don't believe your story, either.

As for the 35 Jewish people that didn't go to work... Think about it... You can do it. There were 50000 people working there. 35 people didn't show up, and this is a big deal?

Canada's NOT the US. Despite what people think, if you don't live here, you don't know what actually happens any more than I know what happens in Ottawa or Quebec.

-->-->--> Johny, saying that all Americans are retards and are abusing Muslims is no more correct than saying that every Arab person is responsible for what happened. isn't it a modified version of what u already wrote? well whether it is or not, it is true... to somewhat... i kinda disagree with the Israel and Palestinian Picture. Because you just can't call one NATION terrorists... i think the definition of terrorism that i believe is that terrorists is an organized group of rebels, standing up for something they believe in. THis wouldn't apply to Russia and chechenya, or Israels and the Palestinians, since you could say that they are 2 races or 2 nations fighting over a country/land.

thats kinda my oppinion

Well Obviously there is no sense in arguing with you all, because you dont understand that what your government tells you is lies. Now the guy, I did break his nose, and no, he diddnt sue me because I would have just done it again and again and again, or one of my friends would have. He knows he did something wrong, and he knows he got was coming to him. Im gonna drop out of this discussion, because you can lead the horse to the water, but you cant force him to drink. See you soon,

johny-5

Sebi: Well sorry if I say the same things over again, but that was a brand new post.

Anyhow, it doesn't matter what is TRUE, they can say "oh, the Palestinian nation defends the terrorists so we can just bomb the shit out of them".

Well if terrorists are just that, militant groups with something they stand up for, I don't find that bad. But that's incorrect - the word terror implies something totally different.

Terrorists do not fight any organized war, they usually aim more or less random civilian targets.

Sorry, I can't let it die like this...

Johny, if my gov't is lying to me so much, what makes you so sure that your sources aren't blowing smoke up your ass?

well i don't think that it is true in this case that they go to random civillian targets... The pentagon would then have not been a target. Also, i think that if they would have wanted to kill as many civillians as they possibly could, they would have 1. waited for a later flight from the airports so that the flights would be full, and not just to somewhat full, like 60 passengers. and 2. they would have crashed the planes into the Building on a later time, when more people would have been working there.