-ChanServ- -- Access List for [#ypn] --
-ChanServ- Num Level Hostmask Time since last use
-ChanServ- --- ----- -------- -------------------
-ChanServ- 1 49 sacah 39m 44s
-ChanServ- 2 49 MooKeen 3d 9h 27m 2s
-ChanServ- 3 49 bpt
-ChanServ- 4 49 geqo 2h 53m 58s
-ChanServ- 5 49 moxx 14h 38m 46s
-ChanServ- 6 49 Robert 1w 2d 2h 11m 8s
-ChanServ- 7 49 svara 1w 5d 16h 45m 37s
-ChanServ- 8 49 rob_ert 11h 14m 7s
-ChanServ- 9 49 fabs 5d 21h 2m 17s
-ChanServ- 10 49 Peter_ 0s
-ChanServ- 11 49 KaGe-chan 27m 36s
-ChanServ- -- End of list --


how's this? why are people like bpt and MooKeen on the list at all, and since when are sacah and mox there?

Me and sacah are on the list because we are both working on the new sasquatch version. We are also "trustworthy regulars" if I you know what I mean.

Also, I don't think that anybody can seriously doubt our engagement for the YPN. We are here more often and doing more than some of the YPR.

If you don't like that, kick me out of the op list. My oping was not meant to provoke anybody.

In my opinion, obligated members who take responisbility and really do something for the community should be ops here.

Whatever, you guys started this all, and I only came around, later. So, you may decide about oping policies. But, I don't think that reasonless 'monarchy' is what will make us all happy. [addsig]

Of course, I am not at all against your getting op, I just didn't know about it. That is why I said "since when" in your and sacah's case.. but I still don't know what the others are doing on the list...

[ This Message was edited by: Peter on 2002-08-10 00:59 ]

Though I do not know bpt (very well), I guess he and the rest are "trustworthy regulars", too.

Don't know, maybe you ask the guy who oped them. [addsig]

Peter:
in that _LONG_ time you weren't here, many things have changed. I have added Mox and sacah, because they are (as mox says) trustworthy developers for sasquatch. And, (no offence, no, really not ), they are way more active than most of the other "so called YPN admins" (fabs, Peter, svara). fabs appears _very_ seldon (no idea what happened to him) and leaves the YPN alone, svara is away most of the time, and you also disappeared for quite a long time. I was sick of handling the whole YPN alone, especially sasquatch, so I asked moxx and sacah, and they agreed to help me with sasquatch. I think these 2 (moxx and sacah) have earned that OP more than those YPN founders in any way.
Robert got the Chanel "admin", so I didn't say or ask anything about the others on the list. Robert knows what he does. And, since all those already stick with us for a long time, they maybe earned it. About geqo, I would have added him, since he is a trustworthy sasq developer, too, and because he does all the stats for the Chan.

Anyways, this wasn't thought to be offending in any way. And, if I had the possibility to reach you (peter), I would have told you that I gave em OP, but your mail address in your profile doesn't work anymore (34sp.com ...), no ICQ or AIM contact in your profile, the mail adress you gave gniibe also didn't work for me... how should I have told you?

Neways, Moxx and Sacah are part of the YPN Admin team. No only the chan, also the message board. They do earn it, and I will stick with this opinion.
[addsig]

Moxx: Yeah, that is why I am asking here in the private forum, obviously they were opped by one of the admins .

KaGez: Yeah, I am quite aware of that I've been quite useless for a long time now. I also know that it is questionable that I have certain rights "just because" I am one of the founders, as I haven't done anything for the YPN lately. However, I wouldn't agree with you when you say "I think these 2 (moxx and sacah) have earned that OP more than those YPN founders in any way." - because if that is true, then the people who are active in a certain period are to be admins. It does sound fair - however, who will give them this role? There has to be someone of a "higher rank" to do so (such as you, in this case). Also, just because I haven't done anything for the YPN for a long period now, I don't think I would, for instance, deserve getting de-opped.

Now, to leave that useless discussion (it really is useless), I am actually not offended by sacah and mox having op.

I still don't understand where MooKeen and bpt comes into the picture. and I doubt that saying "Robert knows what he does" makes it ok . if all the admins know what they do, but the rest of the ops don't know what the others are up to, it'd be quite a mess.

Oh, and I know geqo is a nice guy, but what development is he into?

geqo is workin on sasq3, to my knowledge hes doin the shoutbox.
Its at the bottom of the TODO file in the ypn/sasquatch cvs thingy
(-:
Im makin the Birthday box, incase your wonderin, since I dont appear in the ToDo file, Its a birthday supprise to all YPN ppl
(-:
Really, CVS is stuffin up for me, and i dont want to comit rouge code, but to cover Windows lamness, I made up the birthday suprise thing
And incase I dont see you (-:, (-: and (-: (From Truman Show, Goodmorning, Goodevning and Goodnigt.
(-:

Ok, but is everyone who does something for sasquatch going to get op just because of that? The op criteria is quite vague, it seems to me..

Well, I guess it's just two things which fall together here. Everybody who's working of sasq is here for quite some time, and nobody can doubt their serious attitude to the YPN.

Also, if it weren't for geqo, sacah and me, the YPN would be opless many hours, every day. I just think that it is good to have at least one op there, always. [addsig]

Moxx is right, everyone whos workin on sasq3 has been here for quite a while, and has put forth many good ideas, and helpped YPN advance, its not soley just the fact that we are helpin code sasq3.

But as Moxx said earlier, you may deop us if it makes you feel happier.
(-:

Moxx, sacah: Ok, that makes sense. I never wanted to deop you, dunno where you got that from . I fully agree to you two and geqo being ops. However, there still isn't any criteria (or there is, but very vague) for getting ops. I suggest a rather "dictatorial" sollution (or just illogical, what fits your mood best): we op whoever we find suitable (the admins will have to agree to it, though). Is that ok with you?

I am going to get MooKeen and bpt off the list though. Any objection concerning that?

[ This Message was edited by: Peter on 2002-08-12 23:14 ]

ok, I'm sorry about that OP stuff about (founders and blahblahblah), but I had to get rid of that. You know, before fabs left japan, we already discussed how we make sasq, what will go into it and so on. And, what is it now? fabs doesn't even show up in the channel, and that really pisses me. For a long while I was working on sasquatch alone (quite a long while ), but then finally moxx decided to help me. And, he sticked around for quite a long time in the YPN, put much effort into it and so on, so I opped him. I opped sacah because I know that he is a person you can _really_ rely on. And I mean it. I've done a lot with sacah together already (not for the YPN tho), and I also know that he gave the YPN many successfull innovasions, and that he also puts effore into making the YPN a better place. That's why I opped him after he joined the sasquatch team.
Now about you Peter I don't hate you or anything, nor am I angry. I just can't live with the fact that you just dissapeared for months, without saying a single word. You are a YPN Admin (and founder), so I think you have to tell it to everybody when you leave for a few weeks or months. You also have a piece of responsibility for the YPN. So if you leave, for what reason ever, please tell at least the rest of the admin team why you leave, even if it is something like "I wanna take a break for some months" or something. That will make things easier for us too, really The same goes for fabs. Fist he told us he'll work out the whole user module, and then he dissapeared, and we were sitting there, knowing of noting, then fabs came some day again (recently) and told us he'll work on it. If I hadn't coded the user module, we'd be still sitting in here without a user module. OK, he coded the basic login and logout funcs, but that's it. It would have helped us much if hs'd have said that he would leave for some months. It would have saved us a lot of time I think...

That's the only thing I really want you to do in the future. I won't be angry or anything if you don't, but it would help everybody a lot I think
So, sorry again about that admin thing, but I just couldn't help
[addsig]

I'm too lazy to read all the long posts here, just wanted to say I think everyone in the list deserves op (I don't know sachac that well, though). Most people outside that list should, in my opinion, not have op. People like wossname, MooKeen and bpt are quite active, intelligent and skilled YPN members, imho, that's enough to give them op.

intelligent = OP?
I don't say that they are useless or anything, but what have they done for the YPN up to now? Maybe I just missed it, but I never saw them making a great idea which was in fact usefull or got used. If I just missed it, I appologize and say sorry
[addsig]

KaGez: Yes, I know... I wasn't planning to get away for a couple of months, actually. However, I get the point and I'm sorry. Before the Hungary trip, however, I did tell the rest of you admins.. I just forgot to post on the messageboard.

I wonder where fabs is too.. I'll mail him sometime today. I want to talk to him anyway.

Robert: I don't see why MooKeen and bpt are such worthy ops. I can agree that Wossname has been around for quite a while and he's been active, but I don't think that all active members should get ops, either. it's of no use.

I want all admins to agree to each of these people getting ops. I say yes to sacah and moxx.

Peter:
it's ok, next time please just tell us

Reober:
it's time to explain =)
[addsig]

KaGez: Contratulations to the more than 2^11 posts

Anyway, I think MooKeen, bpt and wossname (especially wossname) deserve ops if sacah and moxx do. I agree with Peter that the decision about adding new operators should not be made by one person only, the reason I added wossname, bpt and MooKeen is that I think they have been at least as active and engaged (on the board, and in the IRC channel), as moxx and sacah.

The problem with YPN is that only a small part of the members are really active (I count myself as semi-active, hopefully that will change some day). Of those active members, too few are mature and responsible (I know it's the _young_ programmer's network, but the problem still is there). I'd say there are about 10 such individuals in the (active part of the) YPN, and I would like to beleive they are all on the access list, and that all who belong in the access list are there.

For a long time, only the original YPR team of svara, Peter and fabs, and KaGez and I, were ops. The operator policy was something like "As Few Ops As Possible." This was based on the fact that we were very few "mature" and "responsible" persons back then, but now, when this has changed, I don't see any reason to keep this strict policy.

Of course it's hard to decide who is mature enough to be an operator, but I think the current access list is about as fair as it can get.

Hope some of you agree with me, tell me if you don't.

/Robert

Wow, Im mature, I reckon I should be to only op, all bow to me.
Well, this has been a different discussion, I reckon last post is good, all channels ive been in or run we op ppl if they are active, and good ppl.

I have nothing against bpt and MooKeen as people, but I haven't seen them doing anything, really, except for posting stuff - and that's actually something we should expect from each and every member! There are other people who's done as much as they have, still we shouldn't op everyone of them in my opinion.

And by the way, wossname isn't on the access list..

[ This Message was edited by: Peter on 2002-08-15 21:07 ]

I also like them, but it looks like robert got something wrong ...

robert:
I didn't OP sacah and moxx because they are plainly active. They put a lot of effort into the YPN, atm it's mostly sasquatch, _plus_ they are active.

I think that sacah made a quite good example above with that "I'm mature blahblahblah". I think we should change our attitude against OPs, I agree with that part, robert. but, I don't think "mature" = "deserves OP". OK, you didn't mean that, I know. As Peter said, activity is nothing that should get honored with something like OP. With the current sasquatch we have no other choice. But in the next sasquatch, activity will also be a major part of your position in the HoF, which should be enough of honor for activity. Tho, the activity that will count for the HoF is only for the page, and not the channel.
I think we shouldn't honor activity with OP. I think that this will have quite the opposite effect. We can't give everybody OP, how mature and how active he/she may be. For example nonama. I don't like him, but I also don't hate him, but I think that we 'd have plain chaos if we'd give him OP.
But, I agree with the part that we should get rid of this "as few OPs as possible". I think that was primarily because those who had OP in the beginning were affraid that if more and more get OP they will loose in "strength". I also disagree with this "OP showoff" in the channel. Go into other channels on freenode (aka OPN). I think you will see very few channels where OPs are constantly sitting around. Yes, it was me who disable AUTOOP in the channel. OK, lemme explain all this:
OP means that you have a certain strength in the channel. You can kick peoples, ban them, do whatever you like. Ofcourse nobody abused this up to now, but I think that if I come into a channel where I'm completely new, and still totaly disoriented, I would bow before the OPs. In most cases if you get kicked you don't even get a reasonable explanation. So with this "constant OP" in the channel we make up a hierarchy. As far as I know the YPN wanted to prevent exactly this. OK, even if you don't sit in there with OP all the time the hierarchy still is there, but it's a _very_ weak one.
Especially young people tend to react aggressive. if you have OP or not, they will argue with you. In most cases this will lead into hate, and not abusion of the OP rights, but something simmilar. I can't explain thi too good, but I've seen that the freenode (aka OPN) philosophy is absolutely the same.
http://freenode.info/philosophy.shtml
http://freenode.info/catalysts.shtml
maybe this can "convince" you a bit better than my lengthy and boring talk
so, back to that policy thing. I think we should loosen that a bit, but not too far. By this I mean that "activity" != "OP". My imagination of OP is that you help the project to move on, help where you can, and the most important, if something happens you will take responsibility for it too. _at least_ these 3 must be there in order to get OP in my opinion. I think that sacah and moxx have these 3, and even more. That's the reason why I gave them OP.
And also, we shouldn't do this "if he does, I do it too". Robert just mentioned it above, that if sacah and moxx deserve OP, mookeen etc. deserve it too. I think this is the worst thing man could ever do. Not just because somebody who did the same thing as you deserves the same. It depends on how you do it, and when.

I think this is already too long, I still could write bunches of text, but it will get boring to read I think, so I'll stop here.
Have a nice day!
[addsig]

oh, btw, forgot to add!
thx for the congrats robert
[addsig]

KaGez brought up something there, when you're new in a channel, who do you ask stuff? An operator, or someone who writes with caps only and has a mixed caps name like "POlYkArP"?

actually, if you care about the nick name, you shouldn't be on OP. I've seen tons of people with CAPSed nicks, with wierd nicks, with sick nicks, all nice persons. OK, some are real jackasses, but you can't see that in the nickname. If you choose persons by their nick, that is some sort of rassism (or however you spell that one....).
I think from now on we should come all together and discuss if one of us wants to give an OP to somebody. But, for that we also need all OPs to be reachable. We should make a team op administrators, which is closely together. At the moment this is _way_ (WAY!!!! I mean it!) too loose. fabs is gone without saying a single word, peter was away too, svara semmed to have dissapeared too.... we can't work in a team if it is like this. If you are in a team, you have a certain responsibility. Whether this is big or not depends on the team, but I think in the YPN this responsibility is quite high, since we try to "teach" others (ok, we don't teach, but I think you've got what I wanna say), therefore the responsibility of every OP is high. If somebody misses in a team, without the others knowing why, the team starts to spread up and get loose, nobody really knowing what to do now. Yes, we _are_ young programmers. That doesn't mean that we have to administrate the YPN as lousy as it is now. I mean, who of the OPs except me looks at the msg board 3 or 4 times a day and checks if everything is ok? Who posts news? Who is now really doing what? I think we should give everybody a task which he has to do. Else the YPN will get _never_ big. If we administrate the YPN as it is now, we won't grow at all, maybe we'll even get smaller... Since we are OPs we should care about the site and the channel. For this we ofcourse need certain rules too, even if these are only manners.
And, I am serious with this post. If we don't find a solution for this untidy and almost useless teamwork, the YPN will fall. period. I think this is a quite realistic result, if you agree or not.
First we should get the Website a bit spiced up. Moxx, Sacah, geqo and me are working on this as much as possible. OK, it takes it's time, we can't do anything about that, we're also humans...
the other thing is that we should fill the YPN with interesting contents, for example funny contests everybody can participate in. Usefull ones please... not stupid stuff like that virii story I just locked .... yes, it was me .... anyways, back to the actual topic. We should also fill the site with contents. Tutorials, example programs etc. sacah has made a good start for that, but it seems like that is also slowly dying away
The final, and maybe most important part is, Advertisement. We should get banners of the YPN where we can, get on these funky TopXXX lists etc.

I think we should make a new post in here, where we decide who does what. I will start it.
[addsig]

Im here for you Kagez
(-:
Yes, it died out, because people request tuts that are plentiful, just require a search on google, or tuts about stuff like c, or linux based.

Both which I am not capible of handeling.
Since my YPN sister site will not be avaliable till sasq3 is done, I might write a few plc programming tuts, its quite similar to basic asm.
(-:

Lets see how I am for time.

Uhm, just a little note - I didn't get OP because I'm a Sasq3 developer, svara opped me because we needed more OPs (me) to kick evil guys.

Or so svara thought

ok, sorry, I was wrong with that one then but I'm still serious with the rest
[addsig]

There would be a need for an OP policy. I'd suggest that we don't op people on a regular basis. We've got a load of new ops now, and that'll do for now.

I completely agree with that. The more we get, the difficult it will get to keep them under one hat, say work together. It's also not very good if we have too less tho
[addsig]

Quote:
..svara is away most of the time..


wrong, i was just on holiday for 3 weeks

well reading the rest of the thread.. actually geqo is sorta right.. tho we dont kick many people anyway.. it's just like, some people had become a bit frustrated with #ypn lately, so we (whoever that is, but well, it includes me and some other people) opped some people.. as a medal of honour for their leetness, you know....

oh, sorry, didn't know that you've been on vacation. Sorry
so, if we don't kick and do stuff, do we always have to sit in there with OP? It's just frustrating for those who don't have OP. Or do you think that it looks something like 31337 when you all sit in there with OP?

[addsig]

I think KaGez is kind of right here. But I also think that it's nice for newbies to see at once who is a regular and who can give you reliable information about the network. Maybe we should leave this policy to the ops themselves. [addsig]

i like all-ops chans, where everybody gets op.. but doing it in #ypn would be disastrous

fsvara: right, it would be disastrous .

I agree with Moxx, for newbies etc. it's good to see who's an official .

I think any newbies ?ions will be based on programing, and the OPYPN (Op's of YPN) are not always the best to ask, we dont know everything, so, most times someone from the chan whos not an OP will answer, so, in a channel like YPN, i dont think its needed to have OPYPN shown, but if you wish to, show all you like.
(-:

I stick to sacah's opinion. If you have to show off, please do so j/k. But, if you are sitting as OP in there, you are expected to know most about the YPN, and then you will surely have to be able to answer all questions that the users ask. That's one reason why I don't OP myself without a reason. I simply can't help everybody, and I can't answer all questions, even if I can answer lots of them.
[addsig]

I never meant "all questions", but official YPN qs.. and you're right, I do like to show off

bleh
but, in most cases you will also be confronted with programin questions if you have OP.. more than if you don't have it
[addsig]