I feel forced to reply here as my posting privileges in the Crew's Lounge are now void.


Not too nice to be back from Stockholm (autumn break) and find such a depressing post. It would really be a shame if you left, you've really been keeping the spirit and doing a great work...

I can only speak for myself: I've been fairly active on IRC lately (except the last week then), and I've coded some on the projects section (not last week, either), but I haven't done anything else.

I know that this is just slightly more than nothing. But I never realized you guys expected me to be an op of full capacity.. I haven't been sitting on my chair grinning with an oppish grin for about a year now, so what's the fuss?

I thought the "leadership" just got passed on to those that were more interested, spirited and active at the time, as contrary to, say, me and fabs, who've been most active the "period" before.

Maybe the "passing the torch" model isn't quite good, maybe we should've had more teamwork etc., but this is nothing that we planned. It just turned out this way, as I see it. It was never discussed.

When I returned after my long hiatus, I of course wouldn't start to behave like I had been here all the time, I'm no scandisking king of the hill and I don't act as one. When I am here (and I know that's not a lot of time) I try to contribute with something, but have I really been bossing around?

So as for taking my op privileges: I haven't done anything wrong, I've just not been really active. That doesn't mean I'll be totally useless, or as it seems you take it, even harmful, forever. I feel quite hurt about it, even though I understand that you're upset. But bashing me with such weak reasons, and also while I'm away, is quite unfair. It feels quite exaggerated that you just kick off a founder like that, just because I haven't been here for a week (and I probably forgot to tell you about that before I left).

I could just sob and say "I'm leaving the YPN" but I do feel I belong here, even though I'm not always interested and active. Tides come and go, and whenever I can, I want to be able to contribute to the community. Maybe unlike you.

This is very regrettable, I never thought we'd come to such a point. I thought you'd at least discuss it with me first, or at least give some kind of a warning that things aren't right.

You have my condolences, Peter. You were, and still are, the the best. If it weren't for you I wouldn't still be on here in the first place. I'm glad you're sticking around though, no matter how active you are.

[ This Message was edited by: dxprog on 2002-11-01 10:49 ]

hehe, thanks dxprog, but no need to exaggerate

ok, let's give you a reply one this:
1) It seems like no OP knew that you were actually on vacation. We have discussed before, that every OP should post something in the priv forum if he/she is unable to be present for a certain time. I have asked you guys over and over to do this, and this isn't the first time you didn't follow this objection.
2) As you're a "founder", there doesn't need to be a "request" for you to be a "fulltime OP". I think this turns out automatically. As you have said, you're doing nearly nothing. I can only agree with this. We (actually moxx and I) are trying to get partyfish done as soon as possible, and in such a situation the only one we rarely see anything from is you. And, the best part about this is that you don't even bother explaining it.
3) Also, I've tried to get discussion about the teamwork going some time ago, and not only once. You tenderly ignored them. Each time. And now you wanna tell me that we haven't discussed this? Well, we haven't, yes, but that's because you have been too lazy to even look at it. No, I can definitely say that it wasn't a matter of time, since that'd have cost you about 5 mins each day, and not more.
4) We're not talking about leadership in any way here. We are talking about a team behind the YPN, which's task is it to keep the YPN a place where users can communicate and learn from each other, or get informed about things happening in the programming industry lately. Have you contributed to any part of this? If so, please tell me, maybe I just didn't see it.
5) Don't take this "founder" shield in front of you again. It means absolutely nothing. At least, in a team which has to cooperate in order to work efficiently. And, if you take this "founder" emblem on your side, then you should actually do something, something which helps the YPN to evolve or get better etc.

Well, I've given you your OP stuff back for the forum for now. But I think you should think again about how you could contribute to the YPN. Anyways, I think not only you should think about it, but that's all posted in the private forum, and I think I don't need to post it in here.
Have a nice day.

I think maybe KaGeZ is right....
He writes the last 8 news and is the activs member and OP too.Maybe peter,fabs,svara.... must do so same than KaGeZ. [addsig]

KaGez:
1) Robert knew, at least. I talked about it in the channel a couple of times too, I think. However, I know that I should have posted, I just forgot it.

2) Having founded something doesn't mean I'm supposed to be there full-time. It's quite obvious. Before this vacation, I did show some activity, and quite a lot relatively to what I showed the period before (this doesn't mean that I actually did much, but my inactive trend seemed to turn... and that's why it comes as a bad surprise that you're kicking me off at this moment and not when I really did literally nothing).

However, I am aware of my inactivity, still. I have really been a lousy part of the partyfish crew, but I thought all help was good help, as only you and moxx are working on it otherwise (and geqo with the shoutbox, if I'm not mistaken). As you actually said it clearly that you don't expect me to even finish the projects section until partyfish is released, I thought it was safe for me to 'do my best and not worry'. I am going to do my best with this, anyhow. What I am trying to say is that I never thought there was a need for me to explain my bad working tempo, it was not a new phenomenon after all.

If you'd like to, we can discuss this and come clear with everything. But then I would like you to drop this attitude, implying that I'm pretending to be important while not even trying to contribute ever.

3) I remember one discussion that was to be held, but for some reason I couldn't make it. I never ignored it, and I even asked you guys about it afterwards.

You would be right about the 5 minutes each day that you mention, but you put them in the wrong context. Yes, I could have been here more frequently (although, as I've said, I was fairly frequent the last weeks), but that wouldn't have meant that this admin thing would have gotten discussed.

While I was here, you gave me the impression that everything was fine. As soon as I turn my back (because of this vacation, SORRY for not telling you specificly, again), you kick me off! Talk about a surprise. If something was wrong, you could have told me to my face instead. Seriously..

4) "to keep the YPN a place where users can communicate and learn from each other" yes, this is what I meant by 'leadership', I chose the bad word perhaps.

"or get informed about things happening in the programming industry lately"
We decided that you'd put together a news team, I reckon. We had a throughout discussion on whether or not we should have this part at all. It's absolutely not a common OP task, I don't even know why you bring it up. the above mentioned development and maintainance part is the OP field. Which I've been fairly active with the month before my vacation. And relatively, also a better job than fabs or svara did, but for some reason you turn against me in particular anyway, I can't see why.

5) I am among the founders of the YPN, and I have been trying to be useful to the community whenever I was actually present - maybe with a weak result but with a good intention anyway. These both things should mean that you can't just kick me off in this fashion.

I have hundrets of things I could write now, I think this discussion is not neccessary to continue. We're just going in a circle and we'll end up nowhere like this.
ok, sorry about taking you OP stuff. You have it back already, and I want you (including the other 2) to get at least a bit more active and try to keep the YPN alive.
[addsig]

I think we should mabye look for some younger ppl to take over YPN, as in fully take it over, Not like Ive been involved much, but as ppl might have notice, my time has been wound down, and will continue to decrease as real life (yer, i bought one on ebay) stuff becomes more important, I got studies and social stuff that will lead onto the rest of my life, YPN(young programmers network) is not the right place for me anymore, Im like, too old.
(-;

We should look for new younger ppl to take over, and mabye take ypn somewhere.

It shall be a boring day with kagez gone too, look at the lest post in all the forums, Kagez gets mentioned a lot.

For those who want to see ypn go forth, we are goin to need young ppl who have a passion for ypn, who want to see it become something great, cause ever since ive been here, its been goin down hill[hmmm, mabye im what started it goin down hill (-; ]someone who can spend time answerin questions, stuff like that, keepin the community goin, those are the types we need.

KaGez: ok, fine, thx

sacah: well, if there are people who really share our goals and want to put work into it, we're quite open for their help, I think.

We need young programmer that take later this project but how old must they been?
All admins are over older than 16 so maybe you must rename the ypn to ProgrammersNetwork or become (really)young programmers as Op's like slash.
Later we need the youngest ppl at ypn as Op's so.
Who the youngest are i don't now but keep it in brain

_________________
--=+BURNE REDMOND+=--

[ This Message was edited by: Henning on 2002-11-02 20:52 ]

ok, this lazy admins story is only one part to be honest. There also is a 2nd part:
as you can (maybe) see (2 1/2k posts, almost all news by me, partyfish about 4-50% by me, always in IRC etc ), I've done quite a lot for the YPN in the past lately, and I simply don't want to do as much stuff in here as up to now anymore. Why? Simple: I actually would love to get my game started (tuxracing.sf.net if you still dunno ), and I also wanna help improve ClanLib a bit where I can. I will either have to drop my "dream" (well, it really is some kind of dream) to write a game or drop my work here as a admin. This OP story gave me the little last kick I neded to drop my work here and instead work on my game.
And, peter and henning asked me in IRC too, but I will not "leave the YPN". I wanted to say something like "I will still stay, but instead I will drop all my op rights and access to the server, and won't do anything without being asked". So I will not function as a OP anymore, and probably my activity will also decrease a lot.
That's all about it
[addsig]

henning: I guess time will tell. people will come and we'll pass the torch, if it's suitable.. sooner or later

KaGez: that makes me breathe a little easier.. I mean, that you're perhaps not all that mad at me . well, I wish you all the luck with your project .

You don't need to drop your admin rights, imo, if you won't be using them, that's ok, you might feel like coming around again. or well, it doesn't matter a lot, perhaps.

well, I could leave them, but one admin account more creates one sec hole more
Well, we'll see how stuff turns out
Thx for the "good luck"
[addsig]

Good to hear you're not toally abondoning the YPN. BUt, does anyone know what happened to fsvara or fabs? I haven't seen a trace of either of them in forever. [addsig]

I know I'm not as actively involved with he ypn as i used to be. However, kagez is greatly exaggerating. Looking at the bb post count you can see i have the second largest amount of posts, directly followed by Peter. It is not true that i'm never in the chan. I guess I'm reading about 80% of what's going on there. Kagez not seeing me active often might have something to do with timezones...

I know I haven't been active as an admin at all in the near past. But, what is there to do for me? I know that is what kagez "didn't want to be asked", but I just have to.
The main thing that there can actually be done is develop "partyfish". I know I might be able to get into that, but I do not have the impression that my help in that matter would be needed at all. Other than that, developing a php engine is not exactly what my interests lie in.
As for posting news - there is no real policy at all about what should be posted. I read slashdot daily, but it'd make no sense to just copy /. stories, right? However, looking at the front page, I see just that, more or less relevant news items of the past. The YPN related news are all partyfish specifc stuff.

So. What does kagez want an admin to be? A developer of partyfish? I do not believe that has ever been the point of our website's engine, recruiting ypn admins.
As for just being generally active in the ypn channel and forums, I believe I fulfill that criteria.

Now, Kagez will argue there is so much to do to keep ypn in shape, keep it moving. I might agree with that, but, kagez has actually done a pretty good job at taking over ypn. He is the only one actually communicating with the server's admin (which is probably because of the language, mainly) and, as he is develoiping partyifhs, is the only 'real' admin anyway, by the house-made defintion I outlined above.

From this point of view, it appears to me Kagez is actually complaining about being the current ypn leader. If that is not what he wanted to be, that is no reason to start ranting about the lazyness of the "so-called admins and founders" on the forums.

If what you actually want is admiration for the great job you've been doing, I can resign and give up my status as a ypn admin in tribute. This is not to say that I do not respect what you've been doing - Partyfish looks quite awesome for what I've seen, but again, no reason to go ranting.

Other than that, I feel it is quite unfair to bash the "ops" like that. I outlined my understanding of your reasoning above, and while I believe I understand you, I do not think it is a legitimate reason to discredit fabs, peter and me in that way. After all, without any one of us, we would not be arguing here in the first place.

It's probably not my place to comment, but surely as an op, you are doing a _service_ to the YPN community. It doesn't seem to me like you should be required to meet some sort of artificial post count quota or some amount of work. As long as you are attempting to make some sort effort in maintaining and improving YPN, then it shouldn't really be a question of "activity" (whatever that may mean).

ok, first: I haven't said that you need to post X posts a day to be a admin. that wouldn't make much sence. anybody could get admin like that.
About fsvara's post:
It is bloody true that we won't be arguing without you, fabs and peter in first place. But still, as you may see, I'm not the only one wondering what you are doing all day. I don't say "drop your admin rights". I want to say that you could maybe do a _little_ (I mean it, _little_) bit more for the YPN than now. I understand that your time is limited too, yes, you also go to school, But we're all stuck with that. School sux Anyways, back to the actual topic One big thing you could for example do is creating new polls etc (maybe a job for peter? since he coded that poll system, and I have absolutely no idea how it works ), post news etc. I've tried to post as many good news as possible, but lately I don't really have time to gather news and stuff. And, since you're reading stuff on slashdot everyday (you still do, do you?), it'd be great if you could for example post a news or 2 a week, which are involved in OS, programming etc. (Just everything that fits into the YPN, and even better, something that fits into the current threads in the forum).
And also, I'm not seeing myself as the leader of the YPN, in no way. I might be doing most of the things, but I still don't see myself as a leader. For me, fabs (even if he doesn't show up anymore) is the leader of this place, and i'm just a OP doing my work, nothing more. What you said is what I actually don't want: to be the leader of the YPN. I don't think that I could be a good leader for the YPN. And I don't want to. That's why I want you guys to be a bit more active: I don't want to be left out as the leader. I have my own projects, and even there I don't want to be a "leader", because I like it to stand on the same level as all others, helping where I can. But, if I stay longer here at the YPN, I will most probably turn out as this "leader". I want all OPs to be on the same level, and best'd be to get them all on the same level as the users (members). This seems to be very impossible to me. I also want that every OP has his/her part which he/she is responsible for. As the OPs know, I've been trying this in the past, but nobody was really interested in it. (at least, nobody except sacah and robert replied as far as I remember)

If we could arrange it somehow, that every OP does his/her part (which we can still asign to everybody), I would even consider to stay at the YPN for another while.
But well, I don't force anybody. If you feel like you wanna do something, we could maybe get it arranged that everbody does his her part.
That's it for now. Have a nice day.
[addsig]

i don't think it's good that OPs have a 'job' at the network, just make fun and code

someones gota run this joint, else it goto hell.

sacah's true here:
If nobody is 'forced' to do something, nobody in here will do it at all. Just look at it.... Somebody gotta run this place, don't you think so?
[addsig]

Otherwise all heck would break loose and the YPN wouldn't be much of the YPN anymore. It would ba a home for trolls and the like. Maybe a bit exaggerated, but it's happened before. [addsig]

it has happened before, and if it goes like this, in the moment I leave it will happen again.... looks like we 3 (sacah, you and I) are the only 3 active ones here atm :/
ANYBODY READING THIS?!
[addsig]

/me read it at 9:26AM CST

I certainly don't want the YPN to fall into disorder. To quote SpongeBob: Quote: It's the most perfect place in the universe
_________________
When I got VB, i could have flown without thrusters and shot down TIE Interceptors just by spitting at them.

[ This Message was edited by: dxprog on 2002-11-14 00:33 ]

Quote:
On 2002-11-13 21:46, KaGez wrote:
ANYBODY READING THIS?!

I'm not very active but i'm still reading this [addsig]

cool to hear that there are still actually _some_ who follow our discussions
[addsig]

i read everything in the forum, including this.

i didn't find much to add, though (:

theres always something a troll can add
d-:

LOL [addsig]

sacah:
nahnahnah, now don't be so rude!!
[addsig]

Sure, I'm reading it .

Well, of course somebody has to run the place, but what does "running the place" really mean?

KaGez: I'm happy about your suggestion, we could discuss what everybody is to do.. I don't think I'll be particularly active in the immediate future (apart from working on the projects section, which I am on programming lessons etc.). But I'll try do do better than this .

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


On 2002-11-13 21:46, KaGez wrote:
ANYBODY READING THIS?!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

YA

woooo, we're not left alone in here!!
[addsig]