This will draw attention (-:
I just wanted to find out what u ppl think of this, I dont think Linux will really go well with general public cause there are so many different distros, I am not a very technical mind, and I gave up linux, apart from Windows just being rightiously sweet, like ownin some of the moon (-: But when I tried Linux, one of the big issues was the fact that so many versions existed, and you want the best one, but noone can really say which is best, and they just give u a ton of technical stuff, and tell u to make up ur mind. im curious if you ppl think the same??

hey, fabs or Peter or whoever is the admin of this forum, LOCK THIS POST! NOW!
you know why
[addsig]

oh, has this been said before??
sorry

sacah: of course we do not think the same

all the different distros give you choice you don't have with other OSes... Some distros are really similar, but some have cool original and unique features...

to you yes, but im talkin bout general public, who know nothing about computers, i cant explain things very well, mabye I should stop now.
2+2=5
1984

--> fabs or Peter or whoever is the admin of this forum, LOCK THIS POST! NOW!

That's right! A post disagreeing with common opinion on this forum! Kill it! Send it to hell! Never mind that this person's at least partially right!

(-:
i like u Govtcheez, i want email u some pizza.

Im not sayin Linux sux, but I just think that ppl are goin on about Linux needin a better GUI before the public will use it, I think that this is a more important issue, which I have never seen addressed. The general public is very indecisive when it comes to computers, so havin 101 linux distros, and no where bitin the bullet and sayin Just bloody well get this one, I dont think Linux will get to popular.
Or just teach the public about computers, and we will all be happy.
(-:

hehe, not knowing which distro to choose is a sign of knowing too much about linux

distros are usually popular by country, i mean, the no1 distro in .de is suse, in the us it's redhat, in .fr it's mandrake etc...

80% of all people in germany who have heard of linux think SuSE == Linux... So they'll just buy SuSE, which comes with a nice, graphical and easy installation/administration utilitys called "YaST", the KDE desktop ready to use and everything a beginner might want on one of the 7 CDs...

--> distros are usually popular by country

Really? That's pretty interesting... Why?

--> i want email u some pizza.

Sounds good

simply because most distros focus on their "home" country with marketing...
and some smaller commercial distros don't have the resources to market their product everywhere in the world... that is why they are a lot of "local" distros in every country.

sweet, thats very interestin, Im gona find the Aus distro and use it.
(-:

Quote:
That's right! A post disagreeing with common opinion on this forum! Kill it! Send it to hell! Never mind that this person's at least partially right!


Heh, I doubt that was what KaGez meant. I disagree with locking the post but I do know that it might end up in innecessary flame wars.

There isn't such a thing as being "right" about this issue. It's a matter of taste, laziness and some other factors.

sacah: I don't mind if Linux doesn't grow popular to the Average Joe Schmoe.. I've tried different distros myself because I couldn't just trust what everyone said (of course I often tested what they suggested). I don't know which one is "best" (which is also a matter of taste, laziness etc), I know I'm very pleased with my Debian Sid.

[ This Message was edited by: Peter on 2002-02-19 08:47 ]

Simply put - there is a "right" here. Unless there's some weird event that causes everyone's capacity for learning to incerease substantially, Linux isn't gonna make a widespread home on desktops.

Ex:
My company has required classes for everyone to use Lotus Notes. That's right - they have to teach people what CC: means, and how to find the options menu. Some of us go there because that's the only way to get our e-mail passwords, but some people go there because they can't write e-mails without help... These people are going to use Linux?

yeah but come on, nowadays virtually everybody younger than 30 years knows very well how to use a computer...

of course, if a secretary has been suing pen&paper or a typewriter to write mail, and after 40 years of doing so somebody puts a strange machine that sometimes spntaneously puts strange characters (like "unhandled exception at 0x0FAC52DE") on their desk...
they're bound to be confused.

--> nowadays virtually everybody younger than 30 years knows very well how to use a computer...

You make too much of an assumption. There's a difference between knowing how to use a computer and knowing how to install and ready your system with Linux. Seriously, people aren't as smart as you believe them to be. Walk up to a random guy on the street today and ask them what it means to "recompile a kernel", and see what they say.

yeah, but "recompiling a kernel" is not what normal people would do - on any system...

Most of them would just buy a comp with some OS (winxp, that is :/) preinstalled and start browsing the net by doubleclicking on that IE icon, checking mail by clicking on the "mail" icon and stuff...

Any desktop-targetted linux distro can offer the same.

Right, but don't some linux apps require you to recompile the kernel when you install? At least for kernel updates and stuff?

Regardless, you know what I mean. I know that *ix can be almost as user friendly as windows, but all these people have grown up using windows and know it. Asking them to switch to a foreign OS is a mistake.

Also - see, we can have an intelligent, flame free discussion about this

Quote:
On 2002-02-19 16:17, Govtcheez wrote:
Right, but don't some linux apps require you to recompile the kernel when you install? At least for kernel updates and stuff?


Yeah, some do - but it's rare. And when an app does need to do something on kernel level, it can simply provide a kernel module that can be inserted at runtime without the user even noticing it. Of course, the kernel must support loading modules compiled for other kernel versions, but most distro stock kernels do that.
That's how it _should_ be - there probably are apps that need some patches to the kernel to run... but that is usually the distro's buisness - Most of them already patch their stock kernels quite badly to include support for almost everything.

Quote:
Regardless, you know what I mean. I know that *ix can be almost as user friendly as windows, but all these people have grown up using windows and know it. Asking them to switch to a foreign OS is a mistake.



hmm, but letting people get inflexble and fixed on some UI is a mistake to
Whatever, linux is a very new desktop product (even tho it's 10 years old - it's usable for the average user since not very long imho...) that will sure gain further acceptance. Microsoft has a very strong position indeed, but no company is eternal... And if one gets near to that title, it won't be a software company

Gah! Tell me next time you're gonna move something!

Anyways, you're basically right, but I still think you overestimate where it's going...

Govtcheez: Gah! I told you!

Peter: Gah! You hadn't made that post yet when I checked the board! Gah!

Gah! I did before you posted that comment!

Well... um... Gah! I hadn't seen it yet! Gah!

Hmmm...One important reason for me to use Linux was, that it was some sort of OS intended for programmers and other Computer-interested, not for normal Users. I think if every grandma uses Linux and it gets as 'User'-friendly as Windows (which makes the word 'User' very offensive) I think I will switch to another OS.

The alternative OSes will always rock the most. And I really like it, that I have to get my hands dirty to get things to run, if you know what I mean. Call me dumb or irrational for that, but that'S how I am. It'S fun and you learn a lot.

Anyway, it would be great if the M$ monopoly would be broken and Linux will perhaps trouble M$ some more in the future.

So keep Linux growing but also in the underground (is that possible???)!!

it certainly is, cause the open source developer community is a very strong one, and the gpl sorta guarantees that linux can't be taken over by big commercial players.

Plus, linux is pretty modular (i mean, in not having a graphicalk interface on a low level, X being done in userspace, wm/desktops on top of x etc), so there'll always be the possibility to get around the stuff you grandma would use

Quite a few people have suggested over and over again X being moved into kernel space - such "suggestions" are usually regarded flamebait or trolls and are treated accordingly on lkml

I've never found a app for linux that needs to some wierd module for the kernel to run. There maybe are some, but those are most probably very exotic things, like stuff for server or something, just stullf that normal users will never use. I've never seen such a app in 3 years of linux.
Anyways, I think you can't say that windows is easier to use anymore. The point is, most users are just used to the windows UI, which makes them act as if they were in a panic when they see a different UI.
I think that if the parliaments (such as the german one is considering atm) switch from windows to linux, _many_ (and I mean many) companys will switch to linux too, because it is just easier to interface with linuxlinux than windowslinux. Also, if the parliaments switch to linux, the other peoples and companys will also see how powerful linux is, which will lead to PCs with linux pre-installed, compnays giving better linux support etc. .
Imho Linux still has to etabilate, which could take 1 or 2 years. But in linux bogs are fixed almost on the same day as they were discovered and/or submitted, wchich you can't say of most progs in Windows... I mean, have you ever seen a company that brings out a patch for every bug they find? I haven't, at least not for windows. In linux, when a bug or security-hole is spotted, it's fixed instantly. This makes linux more safe and also efficient.
ok, this has some disadvantages like that you have to update your system often, but in return you have a stable and secure system.
Anyways, opinions may differ, this is just mine
[addsig]

Stability and Security are only as good as the user, and most users dont have a clue how to use Windows, imagin them in Linux, I dont think Linux is ready for Gov users yet.

And think of the poop computer techs, their life is goin to be hell for a few years!
"Wheres my Start button?"
"You use this button, its in the same place, just a different picture!"
"But what we had before worked good, why change?"
"Because this is better!"

"I brought this game in from home, and it does'nt work?"
"You cant run things from home on these computers!"
"But why?"
"Its a different OS!"
"But Why? What we had before let me run them"

(-:

heh... what a comment...
I think windows isn't easier than linux anymore. It's just the image all peoples have. My GF got a comp from me (my old one) for the first time her life. We installed linux, because she said that she wanted it because I use it. She asked me several things like how to copy stuff in the console blah. After some days I ask her how she gets along with it, and she told me something like that she already explored the web with links and lynx, started X, installed some programs with apt. She used windows several times before, but it was almost like she started from scratch when I gave her my old PC.
So I think the argument "Linux is difficult to use" is about to die away.
[addsig]

I think you're wrong, Kagez... Linux may be easier than it used to be, but sachac is right...

govtcheez: that's sacah, not sachac!

sachac != sacah

-->govtcheez: that's sacah, not sachac!
-->sachac != sacah

Well, would ya look at that... Sorry... The names are too similar...

hehe, names are simmilar, but sacah is much more talkactive than sachac
[addsig]

you have trouble typin it, you should see my freinds pronunce it
(-:
FYI
http://texnat.tamu.edu/cmplants/toxic/text/sacah.htm
My full nick is Sacahuista, but I abbrev in IRC/BBS etc to sacah

And Yes to a first time user Linux would not be that hard, but these ppl are not first time users, they are Windows users. They have expectations, and habits that will not live up in Linux, I not sayin Linux is easier/Harder than Windows, just sayin they dif, and ppl have a hard time changin.

oh, ok
but certain other ppls say that linux is "harder to use"
[addsig]

In my opinion Linux is of course harder to use. New Hardware can trouble you a lot under Linux and setting it up is in most cases much easier with Windows than it is with Linux.
And the freedom that Linux offers me as some kind of advanced user, is something most 'normal office users' won't value too much.

but if you talk about some specific negative argument for windows, you can be pretty sure that argument will be true for the next few years - until microsft brings out the next windows version.

With linux distros however, new drivers and autodetection for those is added in every minor number, and they come out every few months.

So, some hardware that isn't autodetected atm might be in the next SuSE, for example.

Just look at the difference betwen SuSE 6.1 and SuSE 7.3 - about 2 years difference between the two. Yet, SuSE 6.1 doesn't have a graphical configuration program, it used the bad looking (yes, you can argue about that) KDE 1 per default, is virtually impossible to install for a newbie.

Now, 7.3, is not any harder to install than Windows 98, comes with the technically as well as visually advanced KDE2, has graphical configuration tool for most of everything the average user will have to do, comes with tons of drivers and will autodetect quite a lot of common hardware.

Now compare, windows 2000 to Windows XP.
They are about equally stable, the only main difference is that XP comes overloaded with eye candy and "wizards".

Linux is evolving and developing soooo fast! Of course, as it gets moe and more mature, development will slow down (as on the kenrel for example, Linus recently said he found kernel development to be relatively complete. 2.6 will bring a lot less groundbreaking stuff than 2.0 for example).

But in two years, where do you think linux will be? and windows?

A few years ago, people complained about lack of utilities for linux. That problem is being solved actively, actually there's virtually nothing, except for some niche software, that can be done in windows and not linux.

Games are another story. But if people brought thousands of utilities to linux in a few years, games can come, too, now that it is being used more and more by technically versed younger people, who do play a lot of games.

Yes I know, you should never underestimate the power of lethargy, and unwillingness to change - but things _do_ change, even if only slowly.

Now, to end this post (that got far too long, btw, and i am supposed to sleep...) - Why would Linux _not_ be used widely in a few years, as it's userbase is constantly and exponentially increasing atm?

Because it's ridiculous to expect that the user base will keep growing at the rate it currently is. Yes, it's getting more popular, but growth always slows down...

--> the only main difference is that XP comes overloaded with eye candy and "wizards".

Yeah... As much as I like XP, the extra menus and wizrds are a pain... I know how to do the things I need to do - I don't need a goddam animated dog to try to "help" me.

Okay, can you show me statistics that indicate this?

What, that growth slows down? C'mon, use your head... It's common knowledge... If something experiences explosive growth for a while, it eventually slows down. If the growth is too high, it's effectively a "fad" and will die away (although I doubt that will happen with Linux)

of course, linux' userbase can't grow forever. it'll stop, or gros very slowly at least when i reaches around 6*10^9

Somehow I think it'll slow down a little while before then

Sorry for busting in. Whatever the case, I believe that there's no operating system capable of growing as fast as Linux may. The Linux kernel really is as good as anybody would want. The problem lies with the various programs that run on Linux. Especially the idea that Linux GUI programming must run on X-Windows. Old ideas ...

You're right. But I still think that XWindows is a good GUI base. Never troubled me very much. But I watching those alternative gui developments with great interest. Let's see what the future holds for us... [addsig]

bugger, this threads still running.
(-:

I would have to agree with the previous pt about peps being not as smart about comps as you think. The avg. user under 30 may know how to 'use' a computer, but your defin' of use and theirs is very different. Most know how to turn it on, check e-mail, walk around Windows systems, but most don't understand some of the things that you would consider trivial, such as: DOS, or anything 'advanced', especially Linux - its not exactly a walk thru a park! & requires a lot of advanced understanding.

With other words, the average "shallow" user doesn't know a thing about how or why something works, they just use it. That's kind of what differs me from my dad .

Heh...same applies to my father [addsig]

hmmm... maybe those users _do_ care!
because, for my father it's the same
[addsig]

My dad doesn't even use computers.

heh, you live somewhere far away from the civilization!
[addsig]

I pray on my knees that my father stops using his computer! I have to help him every time when he wants to do crappy stuff like copying files, downloading stuff or getting new WinAmp-Visualisations(WTF!?)...

It's really a shame... [addsig]

KaGez: Haha! No, I don't

my father isn't that bad
he plays around with his PC by installing WinXP every few weeks, and then he just plays around with all those windows settings. for us it isn't very challenging, but those ppls are one generation older than we are
[addsig]

Hope we won't become like them. I mean, they lost the ability to learn. Maybe one advantage of being a coder is, that you never stop learning... [addsig]

that can get a big disadvantage if you're getting unable to learn...
[addsig]

Routine kills your learning skills...that applies to our parents' generation, I think. Once they were in their job they did not have to learn _that_ much. Maybe we as programmers who have to learn everyday this does not apply... [addsig]

In my opinion, that is the essence of hacker mentality - not settling with what you already know but always being curious and finding new ways.

Yeah...this "Quest for knowledge" is one of the things that started me programming! [addsig]

Yes, with other words, it's not the programming that will make you able to learn more later on in life, it's that spirit that first made you interested in programming.