since i noticed that only few people here are active... i thought that when the new design is done, we should post some (lot) snippets/tuts/progs............. and try to reActivate those 400 members.
Just think about it?

[addsig]

1) what new design? did I miss something again?

2) Writing a tutorial is not so quickly done, and this is my personal opinion, but I think that the YPN is just too inactive to post some code snippets or tutorials or whatever. Just look at all those things submitted lately... for example my OpenGL fractal. I've been working on it for 1 (maybe even more) Month, and, who rated it? svara, and _nobody_ else. OK, I _do not_ wat to say that you should go off and rate my stuff, it was just a example.
Another good example are the programs submitted before, like that slog thingy and the httpd. The ppls are really putting effort in the things they submit, and then it just hangs around, and nobody even looks at it (ok, almost nobody). in my case this generates a _really big_ lack of motivation to write such stuff anymore. I'm just sick of submitting stuff that won't be rated anyways.


_________________
cheers

KaGez

[ This Message was edited by: KaGez on 2002-01-30 08:53 ]

you're right kagez but,
there are lot of young programmers out there. and most of them that came to this site are looking for a community.
but how many active members are there - 30?
and how many really active - 10?

but for example im going to start to round up my oop knowledge by learning it all againg from 0. (but this time c++ oriented).
so as i learn im gonna write it down... and later rewrite it in a tut and post.

but think about what would happen if we
1) pump up the site with 100 docs (which can be done i a month),
2) link other sites to ypn
in other words give some dynamics to ypn

then use these 400 e-mails, to call back old members, get them motivated...
and make this community active, and not just a hangout for few people.

ps. new desing = i ment sasquatch2
[addsig]

sasquatch 2 is in action right now. we are going to improve it quite a lot though, it's in progress.

lbYdl: Your idea sounds good, and also has something that will move ppls mind, but I've seen this community for about 1 year now, and the only 3 things that chaged were the active ppls, the # of members (inacive ones included), the # of tuts/progs. The acrivity level hasn't changed much since that (I've said _much_). And yes, as far as I've seen fabs, Peter and svara have been working hard to let this community grow.
I don't know what it is, but I think there is something else missing that will keep the ppls acitve. I really don't know what it is, but I sometimes really have the feeling that there is something small missing to keep the ppls look at the page, come into the IRC chan and also keep them active.
Maybe it is the design that is too simple (I know loads of ppls that leave a page if the design isn't good), or maybe there is a section missing or something.
I think this could be a good topic for the next poll. Maybe asking the ppls what they think is still needed, or what they want would give a answer. I'm not saying that this community doesn't satisfy me, but there actualy seem to be some ppls that think that it doesn't satisfy them.
So I think that we maybe should make a poll or something and ask what ppls want before pumping the page full with tutorials and code. it still isn't to late if we do that afterwards.

As I said, I think lbYdl's idea is good, but with not that many active ppls it's not really realizable, since not everybody knows every progging language, or tips and tricks about coding. I think for lbYdl's idea we'd need about 40 or more active members, because then there will be a huge variety of things to look at, even bigger than there is now.

ok, now if anybody is up to flame me for this, just go on and make my day
[addsig]

coincidentally, peter and me have been talking about exactly that issue on irc yesterday

so yes, we are thinking about it...

i guess we should find the little missing part.

lets make improvements people, let's make this a real community
GO!


ps. most people likes when homepage is updated daily, e-mail notifications about new stuff...

yeah, that was also a initial idea that the YPN wanted to do. Send out weekly or monthly newsletters. I think this is a great idea, because it will get the YPN back into the head of pls that signed up before and went away again. I know that a newsletter is something that is hard to maintain and also a lot of work, you also need some degree of imagination for it. But, I think this is one of the best ideas. I think we should consider this again, and then just send out a newsletter, even if it is only once in a month.
We could put stuff like recently added codes/tuts/progs into it (links ofcourse), the coder of the month, hilighted links, things that happened lately on the net and other useful stuff. The possibilities are infinite. We should just get up once and continue it.

Also another thing that would make a little more impression would be news on the front page. No, not that small ticker on the top. I'm talking about something I've got on my page (http://kagpro.sf.net). I would even contribute my code, and the corresponding admin part of my engine for it. You know, if that news thing is on the front page, ppls will actually see that this is a active cummunity, that is, if somebody always adds some news. I would volunteer for this too if you like the idea.

These are the things that popped up in my head after thinking a bit, so maybe even more will come out, but this should show the activity of the community very much

[addsig]

news idea = great idea
keep 'm comming

i suggested putting big news on the frontpage a loong time ago when we werr planning the site, but we decided not to do it.. i dont rememebr the exact reason anymore tho

anyways, the version on my page is very old atm (about 2 or 3 months, maybe even more). I've implented some thingsto it since then, as follows:
1. Pages support (so you don't get DoSed), with sacah's code as base
2. some GUI/HTML cleanups
3. admin thingy got a bit tidier for it, also faster.
4. added page support in the admin thingy for it too
5. themes support, so you can easily change design and simmilar stuff.
6. the tables used for the news are now stored in a outside template so you can also modify them without hacking into the php code

these are the main things I've added. it only uses 1 table in the db.
[addsig]

Actually the transition from small news to big news would go quite quickly. It'd only need some GUI alterings in my news.php code too. and of course us writing longer news and more often.

Also, I do think it's a good idea to fill the site with as much useful tutorials as possible.

When I joined YPR (which later turned into YPN), basically, only the crew members were writing tutorials. The community model is far better, but I think we might consider putting some guys on the task of writing quality tutorials for each section, or at least keeping them alive with new submissions.

I know that a site with a lot of useful docs would be more attractive to contribute to. We have quite a lot already but let it grow =).

As for the design, as KaGez noted. I haven't gotten else but positive feedback on the design, although I'm always keen to make new ones. I actually did one before the sasq2 update but it didn't really fit us.

If you think that'd be an important thing, let me know, and I'll start right away.

I'll do a new, extended survey about these issues right away.

Yeah, we've been working quite hard with this. Actually I do feel a bit guilty for not working more with it but other things in life keep me busy. later on I'll to prioritize better, and to get more time for everything.

I have ignored this post for far too long and now I finally found the time and energy to read it all from top to bottom and I must say, I'm really happy you guys put so much thought into the topic.
_I_have also noticed something is missing and I think I know what it is:

Resposibility.
People come here, they post a tut or 2, then they're off forgetting about the ypn. A community, however, can only work if each member identifies with it and feels he/she is needed.

Right now, we have 3 admins: Svara, Peter and me and I think that's one of the big problems. 3 people do the page the rest finds themselves being users. Programmers hate being users.

One idea Peter and I came up with was setting up the ypn on sourceforge and giving access to those who wanted to help on the website and sasquatch2 development. This is especially important because people who belong to this community and are good at web-development should be able to use their skills to improve the system. Not only does this improve the infrastructure of our community but it is also the natural way this community should work. If something scandisks up, if the website looks shitty, then it's the whole communities fault and in turn if it looks great, it's the effort of the whole community which is displayed.
Working on the ypn together is in my opinion the way to go.

Of course, we cannot open up the webserver to the world and shout: "Hey, people! Here's some source, go hack!" That would end in disaster. But we should allow php/mysql programmers to join the project easially by contacting those who are already involved.

Now, this community is not only about building a website as a team, it is especially about sharing knowledge in forms of tutorials, source-code etc.

Personally, I don't care if people rate my stuff. I put it up because it gives me the feeling that I have enriched the Internet with useful information and that I might have helped some programmers in need. My reward is not the points I get but I was awarded in advance. The internet helps me find information about programming everyday and no matter what I want to learn about, I find at least one tutorial or source-snippet about it.

I can understand however, that KaGez is kind of mad about not having being rated much recently but I'd just like to ask you to look at it on the long run. And even if your doc is never rated, never even downloaded, you offer it to those who need it and it'll be there for them and that's what makes it great.
Posting a tutorial is trade of knowledge and the power of open-source lies in this trade.

I hope I don't sound like a GPL-moral-addict or something, but these are my personal thoughts and feelings on the issue.

If you agree on what I said above, we might want to wrap up a little document telling people why they should post and what it does for them.

cheers

fabs

As I take it, what Fabs just said was bsically "let's have more admins" and "give the members some feeling of importance". And I whole-heartedly agree to both. The question is: how will we do the latter?

It has to come from the members themselves to a great extent but we need to feed the fire so to say, we have to start it up (no pun intended ).

Also, just a little correction: we were going to put sasquatch 2 on sourceforge, or am I wrong?

I don't only post to get rated either, but I am usually quite disappointed when I see that hardly anybody rates anything (I know I'm guilty too but I do have excuses.. and I won't be for long!). It's about having a community and respecting each others' work and the community spirit by reading the damn thing.

Somebody suggested a "click count" for the documents, which we should implement, to see how many people have actually read/downloaded the thing.

Click count's a great idea.
We should actually think about moving the whole page to sourceforge though. Changes than really matter and people will see we are serious about this and that sasq2-development is not just a coders playground. People will in turn have to carry a lot more responsibility which I believe is the missing elemnt right now.

I think we should have people responsible for certain parts of the page, that is not the system but their contents. For example, if nonama administarted the AI-section we'd besure to have found the best person in our community for the job as he knows most about AI, knows people who do AI and might want to encourage them to post. And of course, he then also knows who's intrested and thus more people would rate because they are really intrested. While rating out of community spirit is great, rating out of interest is far better.

fabs

yeah, that's what I meant with "more admins".

about the SF thing: YPN is not a project and is not developing one project but it's a community. how would that work with SF?

SF hosts websites as well and there's is no doubt: YPN is an open-source project. We're basically standing up for open-source by what we do. I'm sure SF would give us webspace.
fabs

Yeah I guess you're right, YPN is a project in some way.

I'd more like to stand up fir "free software" though . (now I sound like a GNU preacher)

let's check with the members and then with sourceforge.

but, if we're really going to go opensource we should forbid submissions without source... that makes more impression
[addsig]

I thought we're already doing that... anyway, yeah, you're right. I'm actually against posting a binary, I mean, it's pretty useless to a programmer.
fabs

ok, that's good to hear
[addsig]

...people are into this. great...

now bout that "more admins" thingy:
why not make it like you did it with names on the forum (when i had 5 posts i was a newbie, and now with 30 im a programmer) -----> make people deserve to be admins.
That will motivate most of people to be active since it has very big psychological impact when you can say "I'm one of the admins of YPN."
hope you understood what i wanted to say.

now bout ai:
make an ai section. make nonama the leader since he has the will. And he will surely post many things 'bout ai.
I will too, and that would be enough to start the ai section. Soon we'll gather more people with ai interest's...

third:
I also suggest that everybody gives his best with posting.
Maybe we should make a big code arhive? (which means that the sections 'll have to be reorganised, and that is not a big problem. or is it?).

fourt:
the third idea:
we should make link/tut/snippet/programm of the week/month part.
of course the submiter should be "rewarded".

... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...

now i beg all of you to think about psychological impact.

*more admins thingy :

maybe not letting them be admins but some "higher status" or something

*sorry for the lang, im tired

I was about to say what you've posted in your last post --> lbYdl
Givin everybody who did a bit in the forum and submitted a bit of code a admin status could lead to .... erm.... let's call it confusion.

Anyways, the news thingy in sasq2 should be ready in some hours form now, and I'll also upload a tar.gz in here, most probably _not_ the identical version of the one I'll send to fabs and Peter.
[addsig]

About admins:
I don't mean that everyone's going to be God over YPN. Rather making people moderator for a forum or administrator for a section. This should not be automated, like when you reach a certain score, although we should of course consider people according to their achievements.

We will create the AI section .

Third: I don't really understand what you mean. We are already trying to create some code base (of course we could put more focus on writing code and tutorials) but why would we need to reorganize the sections (and how)?

The code/tutorial/program of the month is a good idea. I'd suggest that the section administrators get togther once a month and discuss who's worthy the title (of course also considering average rating).

Yes, psychological impact is important. I will try to create some more suggestive, active design. Of course the dynamic news on the front page will fill an important function too. Any suggestions are welcome.

ok, the news thingy for Sasq2 is almost done, now working on the administration thingy. It shouldn't take too long till I've got it finished (hopefully today or tomorrow), so that will also have a great impact if there are new news on the page everyday
[addsig]

peter: i was bit unclear, since i was tired when i posted last 2 messages.
anyway when i said admin i didnt mean that
i ment on some kind of higher status, you know giving people credits for being active, motivate them... hmmmm well im unclear again but hope you know what i wanted to say

codebase.
well this is some kidn of bad example but ...

Visual Basic Code :
|
-Searching And Sorting
-String Handling
-Registry
-Printing
-Multimetia
-Math
-Internet
-Graphics
-Fonts
-File/Disk Operations
-Error Handling
-Database
-Controls
...

you understand?

[addsig]

also, a search engine in sasq2 would rock! I could do this again, because I already have made a search engine once for my PHP engine. if I'm allowed to (or if somebody wants me to do it) I'd code a littl search engine for sasq2
[addsig]

why not a search engine with advance search options?

yeah we were planning this but who knows where this idea went... hehe

...basicly everything here mentioned was to be done long time ago. but noone did it.
...now just think, if you'd done this a year ago...where would this site be?

hehe, a year ago is a bit far away. then we were finishing the first version of sasquatch. rather say five months =). but I get the idea. true.

but then we didn't have so many members anyhow - I think that if the three of us (maybe one or two more) would have been even more active, that wouldn't have made ypn a lot better. we need more members who want to get engaged.

I'm also here, don't forget me
I'll help you out anytime if you want, as you can see atm.... I'm spending all my time for that sasq2 thingy
[addsig]

how about programming competitions? what about assigning people to a group and giving them something to code (if they volunteer, of course)?

KaGez: yeah, and that's great =). don't consume yourself in the process though, get some time for other things as well .

Flikm: hm, we do already have contests. Maybe we could try team contests once there are enough people interested.

.there aren't enought people for projects and contests right now.
we cant do that if we dont have at least 100 active members so 30 can participate the contest.

anyway : peter, robert, kagez, svara, fabs, adavus, ibydi, nonama -----> correct me if i counted wrong but 8 for now. any more?

I think that's all (8 ppls) that are working actively on the YPN atm, yes
[addsig]

well i hoped you will correct me and add more names to the list

btw, search engine in progress
hopefully I'll finish it off tomorrow
[addsig]

The projects section is in the do too (at least the first prototype). I've done some of it already and I'll give a lot more time to it now that there is no upcoming gig for my band.

btw
(don't flame me if I am not allowed to ask ), how's yowie doing?
[addsig]

KaGez: it's about half done, I'd say. it's not in a good shape, but obviously the projects section is more important.

what will be interesting with yowie is that it's going to be easily implanted in sections or project pages. as I don't have many duties atm, I'm going in for these two things (projects section and yowie) as much as I can.

hey, i can whip up a nice looking gui for the page, ive always wanted to! i mean you dont have to use it but if i make it would you guys be willing to look at it?

we can look at anything if we use it is a different Q tho
[addsig]